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Old 19th Aug 2018, 4:44 pm   #101
D Cassidy
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by crackle View Post
What is wrong with fussy and complicated, I would imagine everyone has pride in the work they do when restoring a radio. Sometimes the more complicated a radio restoration is the more rewarding.

I think it is more to do with perception, reputation and how familiar you are with the process.

Do you have a web page of your radio collection yet? Give it a chance, persevere, and look back at your own web page showing your personal collection.

You can add your collection of valves and transistors too.

Mike
Hello Mike.
I can see you are dedicated to RM and no doubt what I may feel you probably wont change your views. That is fine with me but you must understand that others may feel differently.
I'm not in any way trying to push my feelings on you but I feel you should put your feet in the shoes of others and then look at what has been said.

When I do a job, whether it was during my working life or in recent years I ensure that I have the proper tools to do the job, the correct knowledge and skills, I don't do things by half and pride myself that it is done to the very best of my skills.
A resource like RM should take into account that all people are different, have different priorities, sizes of collections and skills whether PC or electronics.
For me with just a few items there is little point in joining if the whole process is cumbersome. Perhaps if I had a decent sized collection I would join and upload photos and articles and in return download schematics, I have only downloaded one since I found the site many years ago.

RM is a good resource there is no doubt about that, but I feel it is too heavily balanced in the favour of those with big collections and not the "little man" like myself and no doubt countless others.
My own health too has limited me from increasing my collection any further.

Finally I think using eBay or other website pictures on RM is rather a grey area, there are copyright issues to take into account, here are eBay's rules on the matter https://www.ebay.com/help/policies/l...policy?id=4240
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 5:50 pm   #102
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Copyright is complex, a complete can of worms and is virtually out of control with internet.

It will have been breached thousands of times on RM, on here and elsewhere, through people uploading schematics and pictures - perhaps of companies who have long since ceased to exist, but that in itself doesn't make it permissible to put such works into the public domain. Many will be what's known as 'Orphan Works' for which copyright still subsists, but where the rightholder - whether it be the creator of the work or successor in title - is unknown or cannot be traced. That does not give anyone else the legal right to use copyrighted material.

In some case, the copyright holder can be traced. Roberts Radio is owned by Glywed, so presumably they are the copyright holders of all Roberts schematics. But realistically, are they going to come after hobbyists for copying say an R200 manual or whatever? We don't ask the question.

Being pragmatic about it, we tend to assume that if we upload or download a schematic, an image or whatever, and we're doing it in the furtherance of the hobby - not for financial gain, that it's somehow OK, but to scan copies of say Newnes R&TV Books and circulated them widely, without the copyright holder's consent could, I think, backfire.

If we lost sleep over this, we'd never post anything.

Orphan works are a huge problem for universities, Museums, libraries and so forth and often comprise a high proportion of the works that they hold. I'm not suggesting that anyone wades through the paper at this link, but a glance at pages 9 & 10 show the extent of Orphan Works in the UK:

https://assets.publishing.service.go...han-201307.pdf

We know that magazines such as PW, Radio Constructor and countless other magazines have been scanned and placed freely in the public domain on the splendid 'American History' website, but for example, not beyond the point at which PW themselves market back issues and CDs.

Keep on not minding seems to be the order of the day.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 6:01 pm   #103
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hello.
A very true post David. Copyright law is complex and difficult for the layman to fully understand. I'm sure RM will have discussed this with the legal profession.
It all boils down to what you are happy to do or not to do.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 7:21 pm   #104
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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Originally Posted by David G4EBT View Post
Copyright is complex, a complete can of worms and is virtually out of control with internet.

It will have been breached thousands of times on RM, on here and elsewhere, through people uploading schematics and pictures - perhaps of companies who have long since ceased to exist, but that in itself doesn't make it permissible to put such works into the public domain. Many will be what's known as 'Orphan Works' for which copyright still subsists, but where the rightholder - whether it be the creator of the work or successor in title - is unknown or cannot be traced. That does not give anyone else the legal right to use copyrighted material.

In some case, the copyright holder can be traced. Roberts Radio is owned by Glywed, so presumably they are the copyright holders of all Roberts schematics. But realistically, are they going to come after hobbyists for copying say an R200 manual or whatever? We don't ask the question.

Being pragmatic about it, we tend to assume that if we upload or download a schematic, an image or whatever, and we're doing it in the furtherance of the hobby - not for financial gain, that it's somehow OK, but to scan copies of say Newnes R&TV Books and circulated them widely, without the copyright holder's consent could, I think, backfire.
This is where I don't really understand. All over the net websites and again I must include Paul are charging for copies of period Trader sheets, manufacturers sheets and pages from Radio and TV servicing etc. I understand a cost being levied for compiling the information and for disc duplication services and this is perfectly reasonable but most seem to claim copyright on the actual material. Paul states this clearly in his "Use and resale conditions" attached to the data discs...........
"You may not make copies of the DVD-ROMs or CD-ROMs or any of the data on them for use by anyone else, nor may you lend them to anyone else"

Not having a dig at anyone just looking for clarification, but I do question if this is legitimate. If I buy a photocopy of a Trader sheet singly or on a disc collection or indeed copy one of my own and wish to distribute it freely then I'm pretty sure I'm perfectly entitled to do so?
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 7:45 pm   #105
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hello.
What Paul has scanned and put on the disc is his intellectual copyright. He won't own the copyright of the original material as he won't have the rights. I'm sure he can explain it better than myself. I was told a few years ago that someone else has the rights to Trader & ERT, not sure who it is though or even if the information is correct.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 8:35 pm   #106
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

It would appear that once an item gets on to the web, it is essentially out of control for copyright purposes. Around 18 years ago, I provided scans of the Bush EU24 operating manual and schematic in my possession for use by a collector on his website, with acknowledgement. Out of curiosity I looked up the Bush EU24 on RM. As far as I can tell - from the creases and stains on the visible manual page, RM has used my original scan.

That the scan has been propagated doesn't bother me in and of itself, but it is ironic that RM, allegedly very strict about reuse of its materials, is quite casual about reuse of materials from other sources. Oh, and should I wish to join RM, I imagine that I couldn't get credit for my materials already uploaded by someone else - not a good look!

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Old 19th Aug 2018, 9:23 pm   #107
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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That the scan has been propagated doesn't bother me in and of itself, but it is ironic that RM, allegedly very strict about reuse of its materials, is quite casual about reuse of materials from other sources. Oh, and should I wish to join RM, I imagine that I couldn't get credit for my materials already uploaded by someone else - not a good look!
This illustrates the problem I have in that RM are now claiming a copyright that they clearly do not own. This seems to be pretty much the norm these days. I find the whole thing very confusing and as far as I can see it really shouldn't be happening. If that were the case we could all go around adopting copyrights as we see fit. I really don't see how you can put usage restrictions on someone else’s intellectual property?

That said, I'm only a dabbler but have looked at the RM and like others on here found it all a bit restrictive and confusing particularly to someone with just a handful of sets. I have nothing but respect for chaps like Howard Craven (well perhaps a bit of radio envy) but few of us have magnificent collections like that.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 10:11 am   #108
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hello.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend late last night re RM. I was told about the use of pictures taken from forums and reused by others stating that the Radio etc is from their collection. He says around a dozen of his pictures are being falsely used. The issue then rears its head when he joins and adds the genuine photograph to his genuine collection, apparently this goes back ten years up to last year.
So really some people cannot be trusted, this brings the hobby into disrepute and of course RM for allowing people to use whatever they find on the internet and forums. It just makes me wonder how many of these collections actually exist.
After the call of last night I doubt I'd join now.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:40 am   #109
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Several posts regarding the Vintage Radio Service Data DVD moved to a new thread here: https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=149044
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 11:41 am   #110
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Thanks Bill.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 12:09 pm   #111
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Quote:
Originally Posted by D Cassidy View Post
Hello.
I had an interesting conversation with a friend late last night re RM. I was told about the use of pictures taken from forums and reused by others stating that the Radio etc is from their collection. He says around a dozen of his pictures are being falsely used. The issue then rears its head when he joins and adds the genuine photograph to his genuine collection, apparently this goes back ten years up to last year.
So really some people cannot be trusted, this brings the hobby into disrepute and of course RM for allowing people to use whatever they find on the internet and forums. It just makes me wonder how many of these collections actually exist.
After the call of last night I doubt I'd join now.
Hi D Cassidy
If this actually true, please let me have the details, by PM if you wish, of any examples where this has happened. I promise to look into the claims and report back here, I have picture admin permissions on RM. I would like to get to the bottom of these comments that are continuing to being made about the Radio Museum, and if required rectify any errors.

Thanks
Mike
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 12:14 pm   #112
D Cassidy
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Hello Mike.
I believe my friend has contacted you regarding this with some details. I'll leave it up to him and yourself as I believe this is the best way forward.
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 12:25 pm   #113
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

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Originally Posted by D Cassidy View Post
Hello Mike.
I believe my friend has contacted you regarding this with some details. I'll leave it up to him and yourself as I believe this is the best way forward.
I am not aware anyone has contacted me. Did he send a contact form or email to the Radio Museum, I would not be aware if he has. Although I have picture admin rights, I do not currently deal with the general day to day email or approving the pictures. Steps are in progress to rectify this so that we can have better continuity for UK RM members.

In order to get to the bottom of this would you please ask your friend to contact me directly.
If he cannot PM me through here, I can be contacted via the email link at the bottom of any page on the KB Museum website.

Thanks
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 12:37 pm   #114
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

There are several sets that I took pictures of when I owned them that were subsequently sold on at meets such as RWB.

It was in my collection at the time of being included into RM

Here is an example:
https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/mullard_mas375mas_37.html

What if the new owner wants to load pictures of their set? which was my set?

Providing there was a new uncovered angle or the set has been restored I don't see why these new pictures would be a problem.

You need to have a look what is already there and use common sense to see if it fills a gap.

Some sets I have moved on now belong to other RM members.

I know that there are people who love restoring vintage radios but have no collection at all, they just like to repair and restore then part with it and move on to the next one. I see no reason why non collectors should not upload their sets whilst they still own them

I do not agree with using pictures from other sources and not acknowledging where they came from. Such practices have no place in RM IMHO.

Cheers

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Old 20th Aug 2018, 1:44 pm   #115
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Yes that is a very valid point Mike.
It must happen a lot, that a RM member adds a photo to the museum whilst it was in their collection, but as we all know radios do get sold eventually.

I did a swap with the original owner of this rare KB export model, https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/kolsterbr_gr13t.html so it will be seen to be in 2 collections, when in reality there is probably only the one example in the UK and Europe and that is now in my collection.
It is possible for a RM member to, in retrospect, edit their own photos of radios and tick to say if a radio is in their collection or not. But I bet not many have done that when they have sold a radio. You cant criticise the Radio Museum for that.

I have uploaded more photos of radios NOT in my collection, about 1500, (and declared them as such) than I have of radios in my collection. Many of these are radios which I have bought, never intending to add them to my collection, as I have now limited my collecting to only a few brands. They have passed through my hands, been restored (or not) and sold on, or given away, not as a business I hasten to add but a hobby because I like restoring them.

I have also uploaded photos form Ebay, e.g. unusual radios I have come across when there have been no photos present on RM, or creating a new model page when the radio is not even in the museum. This is to everyone's benefit and it helps buyers, sellers and collectors to identify the radios.
I would estimate that about 15% of all vintage radio sellers on ebay have just copied the data from RM and pasted it into their ebay listing, I see it all the time.
So as far as I am concerned it like a sort of reciprocal arrangement that benefits everybody and harms nobody.

RM will refuse any photo which has identifiable copyright or watermarks, the same goes with schematics.
But I do accept that their may be the odd well meaning rogue member who may edit out markings and upload photos and schematics, not necessarily to boost their points but probably because they want to see a complete picture of all our radio heritage.
When the schematics are published, so many have paper copies and they are also in the public domain, it is impossible to identify and stop this from happening. But rest assured RM will take action and credit or remove items if they are notified of any infringements, in the same way they would expect forums and such to take action if they were notified of any RM material being used elsewhere.

Strewth, I didn't expect to type this much, I am going for a lie down.

Mike
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 5:24 pm   #116
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Three posts moved to a new thread here:-

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=149053
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Old 20th Aug 2018, 5:38 pm   #117
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Thank you Graham.
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Old Yesterday, 8:33 pm   #118
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

Interesting thread about copyright. Some years ago I scanned the Mullard audio amplifier circuits book to PDF and sold many copies on CD. I claimed copyright on the CD but not on the original text and circuits although they were probably out of copyright by the original company.
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Old Yesterday, 9:18 pm   #119
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Default Re: re Radiomuseum downloads

If I were to take a photo of a set from my collection and upload it to RM, eBay or anywhere else, it's no skin off my nose if someone else uses it for their own purposes. If they happen to make money by doing so, good for them - they've shown more initiative than I did!
Of course, commercial photography, authorship etc., is another matter.
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