UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Telephony and Telecomms

Notices

Vintage Telephony and Telecomms Vintage Telephones, Telephony and Telecomms Equipment

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 11th Aug 2020, 8:07 pm   #81
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,744
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Well, there's good news and there's bad news. The good news is, with the slave socket connected, all three of the other phones ring just fine. In case you haven't seen it coming, the bad news is that phone A doesn't ring at all.
This would appear to confirm that, as I rather suspected, the orange pair have not been connected up. In the absence of getting at the other end of the four-pair cable and connected it, you are stuck with the absence of ringing on the 782 plugged into socket A.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
I've connected the blue / blue & white wires as they were in the original socket, to terminals 2 & 5. I don't know whether it makes a difference which way round they go, but yes, I've made sure it's the same way round.
In the absence of ringing on a third wire it doesn't make a whole heap of difference. It would merely mean that the 'phone were operating with its line voltage polarity reversed, and I assume the electronics in the DTMF dialling unit are protected against reverse polarity, e.g. by a bridge rectifier. Everything else operates quite happily with either polarity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
I've connected the orange wire to terminal 5; results as above. Just in case, I've followed the directions on the packet and connected the orange & white wire to terminal 4; I don't know if you'd expect this to make any difference, but it doesn't.
I wouldn't expect it to make one iota of difference in this situation, as this wire is only used in specialised systems, whose details I won't confuse you by going into. In a normal domestic installation it is unused.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
As regards the 'orange' and 'orange / white' wires: referring back to my original pictures, I've taken this as near face value as I can. As you can just about tell from the pictures, one wire is orange and the other is orange with a white stripe running along it. The packet describes these as, quote, 'orange with white ring / blue' ( to terminal 3 ); 'white with orange ring / green' ( to terminal 4 ). As per previous posts herein, I've taken their 'orange with white ring' to mean 'orange' and their 'white with orange ring' to mean 'orange with white stripe'.
Yes, the standard convention is that the "tip" conductor is predominantly of the main colour (blue, orange etc) with a narrow strip of the background colour (white etc), whereas for the "ring" connector this is reversed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Pending further advice, I haven't yet reconnected the previous ( spurious master ) socket as socket A, but I'm assuming that's the only way I'm going to get all four phones ringing, albeit barely in some cases.
That or re-establishing the T6-T7 and T8-T9 straps to reconnect the internal capacitor of the 'phone to be used in socket A - which should have exactly the same effect.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Aug 2020, 8:45 pm   #82
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

It's even more complicated than that, unfortunately: it's not just a case of the other end of the cable being next-to-impossible to get to ( and even the words 'next to' are a bit generous ), it's a case of not knowing where the other end of that cable would even be. It would be one thing if I knew specifically where to look - even if I couldn't get to it, maybe someone else could - but I don't. Assuming I could ( somehow - I've no idea how ) figure out where the other end was, then there's the problem of it being next-to-impossible to get to!
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 11th Aug 2020, 8:46 pm   #83
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Sorry - I saw Tony's post but not Dave's - I'll give this another look in the morning!!!
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12th Aug 2020, 4:25 am   #84
TonyDuell
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jun 2015
Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK.
Posts: 3,874
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

You may have to do the almost-impossible.

The only way I can think of to sort this out is to find out exactly what the installlation consists of. That, alas, means getting to all of the existing sockets, unscrewing the front plates and checking :

1) Are they master or slave sockets (do they have the capacitor inside)

2) What wires are connected to the terminals.

Something else that would be interesting to try would be to use one of those 2 way adaptor to connect 'telephone A' to one of the other sockets along with the telephone that's already there.
TonyDuell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Aug 2020, 5:25 pm   #85
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

The first experiment I've tried - because it's the simplest - is the last suggested, i.e. use a two-way adaptor to plug phone A in alongside one of the other phones. Phone A is still as last strapped, i.e. both of the two 3.3k resistors still in place as instructed, no straps between T6 / T7 or T8 / T9. All three of the other phones are also as last strapped, i.e. with one 3.3k resistor in each.

So I used the afore-mentioned two-way adaptor and plugged phone A in alongside phone B. I can't imagine it makes a difference, but to qualify that slightly: referring back to the inaccessibility of socket B, phone B is connected via a long extension lead which goes to the actual socket behind the TV unit. It so happens that there's a dual socket on the end of that lead, into which phone B is usually plugged; so, I've plugged phone A into the other half of the dual socket, alongside phone A.

To be honest, this has gone beyond the point where I knew what to expect, but what happened was that phone A didn't ring at all, phone B, alongside it, barely rang, and phones C and D rang normally ( for them ). I'm not sure whether I should have changed the strapping in phone A before trying this experiment ...? If so, let me know, and / or if the existing result reveals anything, also by all means let me know!

If - and there isn't a font big enough for that word in this context - it's possible for me ( or someone ) to get at the master socket ( currently where phone C is plugged in ), and if it turns out the orange wire isn't connected at that socket, is the solution as simple as connecting the orange wire? - Or is that just the wishful thinking of a desperate man?
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Aug 2020, 5:33 pm   #86
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Just as an afterthought ... I don't know if this has any bearing on the main problem ( I suspect not ), but F.Y.I. ...

In order to test the ringing, I attempted to use 17070. I was able to successfully get through to the recorded message, but from that point on, it didn't seem to 'hear' the pressing of buttons in order to tell it which test I wanted it to perform. This appears to be the case no matter which phone I use. I also noticed that upon getting through to the 17070 recorded message, there's a slight 'ticking' sound on the line ( again, regardless of which phone I used ).

That being said, before posting this, I've just tried the exact same thing again using phone C ( plugged into the master socket ) and it seems to work without a problem. Phone A, still as last strapped, is currently plugged back into socket A.

As I say, I've no idea whether or not any of this has any bearing, but just thought it might be useful information. Maybe.
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13th Aug 2020, 10:16 pm   #87
russell_w_b
Dekatron
 
russell_w_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
Posts: 3,367
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
and if it turns out the orange wire isn't connected at that socket, is the solution as simple as connecting the orange wire? - Or is that just the wishful thinking of a desperate man?
Perhaps. But you need to know where the other end of the orange wire goes too, as it doesn't sound like you have a direct route to all the sockets.
__________________
Regds,

Russell W. B.
G4YLI.
russell_w_b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15th Aug 2020, 2:55 pm   #88
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

The attached picture, I'm reliably informed, shows as much as can be seen of the inside of the master socket after removing the front panel ( which, I'm also reliably informed, clips on rather than screws on ). Before connecting anything to anything else, I'm just posting this in case it enlightens any of you more than it enlightens me!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Master Socket  ( internal ).jpg
Views:	51
Size:	54.5 KB
ID:	213539  
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Aug 2020, 2:42 pm   #89
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
Pending further advice, I haven't yet reconnected the previous ( spurious master ) socket as socket A, but I'm assuming that's the only way I'm going to get all four phones ringing, albeit barely in some cases.
That or re-establishing the T6-T7 and T8-T9 straps to reconnect the internal capacitor of the 'phone to be used in socket A - which should have exactly the same effect.
Still pending any further advice that may be forthcoming on the basis of the picture ( such as it is ) of the inside of the master socket, I've left the slave socket as socket A, connected as described above ( including orange and orange / white wires ). I've re-strapped T6/T7 and T8/T9 in phone A. Two resistors still in phone A, one each in B, C & D. The result of this is that phone A does not ring at all, phones B, C & D ring healthily.

As mentioned, I've left the orange and orange / white wires connected in socket A. Now I've re-strapped phone A as per instructions, should I disconnect either or both of these wires?

Any enlightenment on any of the above gladly received as always.
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Aug 2020, 7:08 pm   #90
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,744
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

I would suggest replacing one of the two resistors in 'phone A with a strap if you wish it to ring, as the second resistor is probably reducing the ringing current in this 'phone below the minimum of what it needs.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Aug 2020, 11:11 pm   #91
teetoon
Hexode
 
Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: Barnstaple, N.Devon, UK.
Posts: 491
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Hi guys. Could I just make an observation as no one has commented on post No88 which apparently shows the master socket.
I can see the numbers 5 3 2 connected to wires, blue white orange (or is it yellow).
Surely white and orange are reversed if that is the cable leading to the extensions ?
Then as it seems the extensions are also master sockets with just blue and white connected, terminal 2 would be fed from the bell ringing wire from the master ?
Just a thought.

David.
teetoon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Aug 2020, 6:51 am   #92
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

The two resistors in phone A came about as a result of the experimentation before we established that socket A was a spurious master and replaced it with a slave. It had occurred to me ( honest ...! ) that that might be an issue now, but since we're deep into territory where the undergrowth is way over my head, I hadn't wanted to remove it without anyone more knowledgeable ( i.e., as it turns out, you, Dave ) suggesting that I should. I'll try replacing it with a strap as you suggest and report back the results.

By the by, I couldn't help but chuckle at 'if you wish it to ring', that being pretty much where we all came in!!

As regards teetoon's observations, this is the undergrowth I referred to earlier and is way above my pay grade; however, in light of the various twists and turns so far, it occurred to me that it might be worth re-stating the situation and the problem as it currently stands.

There are four phones which I've arbitrarily called A, B, C & D. They are all, I'm pretty sure, 782s. Phone C is plugged into a known master socket as pictured in post #88 ( not a great picture, I admit, but the best I could get due to the relative inaccessibility of the socket ). There is also a CD1000 scanner plugged into master socket C. Phones B and D are plugged into sockets which are inaccessible short of major furniture removal; I can tell you that these are decorative brass-finish sockets of the type which I believe can be bought ( or could be bought at the time ) from B & Q, but that's all I can categorically tell you. Phone A is the newest addition to the system ( by which I mean the most recently plugged in, rather than the newest of the phones; if anything, it probably is in fact the oldest of the phones ). It is plugged in to what we now know for sure is a slave socket, wired up by me in accordance with instructions in this thread.

Phone A has two 3.3k resistors in, as stated above, strapped according to instructions earlier in this thread before socket A was determined to be a spurious master and replaced with a known slave. Phones B, C & D all have one 3.3k resistor strapped according to instructions earlier in this thread; I believe, based on more knowledgeable observations also earlier in the thread, I can attest to the fact that the strapping is correct in B, C & D, including the recently-introduced resistor. All four phones have 2 x 500k electromagnets ( apologies if this is the wrong term: I'm sure you'll all know what I mean ).

With the system set up as described, the situation now ( pending my removing the second resistor from phone A as per Dave's suggestion in post #90 ) is that phones B, C & D ring as healthy as horses and phone A doesn't ring at all. Phone A has been tested in other sockets and rings normally in isolation.

I think that's a summary of all the salient facts, although as always, I am by no stretch of the imagination infallible, and if I've omitted anything, my apologies. Given that I do, very much, want phone A to ring, if anyone can shed any further light on the situation ( again, pending the removal of the second resistor from phone A ), or if anyone has any further thoughts on the wiring of the master socket ( socket C, if you like ) as pictured in post #88, all contributions more than welcome. I honestly don't think there's much else I can tell everyone, but if you need more information, by all means ask. To be honest, I would think that those of you who have been with this thread since the beginning probably know more about my phone system than I do by this point.

Thank you all for your indulgence; I'll report back on the removal of the second resistor from phone A in due course, and other than that, I'll watch with baited breath.
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Aug 2020, 3:04 pm   #93
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

So: reporting back as promised.

The second resistor, which was inserted into phone A between T16 & T17 as per instructions earlier in this thread, has now been replaced with a strap. No change: phone A doesn't ring at all, the other three ring healthily.
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Aug 2020, 7:06 pm   #94
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,744
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

If there is a resistor between T4 and T5* and T5-T6-T7 are strapped and T8-T9 are strapped, with further straps T16-T17-T18-T19, then ringing should occur via the internal ringing capacitor. The absence of ringing would imply the ringing cap is non-functional.

*The same can be achieved with T4-T5 strapped and resistor between T16 and T17
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Aug 2020, 7:57 pm   #95
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

I'll double-check the strapping tomorrow; I'm reasonably sure it's as you've described, but with all the chopping and changing, I'll make sure. However: if it is the ringing capacitor within the phone itself that's faulty, then shouldn't it be the case that the original setup - i.e. with socket A being a ( maybe-not-so- ) spurious master - would work, the socket itself containing the capacitor?

If this is nonsense, forgive me - it's been a long day and I know I'm getting out of my depth!
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Aug 2020, 8:12 pm   #96
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,744
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

With all the variations we've been through, I couldn't remember where we were with resistors in all four 'phones and 'phone A using a master rather than a slave. I had recalled it as being some sort of ringing, albeit unsatisfactory, from each 'phone. If 'phone A didn't ring in that scenario, then yes I would expect the same with the latest configuration.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Aug 2020, 2:46 pm   #97
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Progress report: re-checked phone A - strapping & resistor exactly as described in Dave's post above. All other conditions as described in post #92; in brief, resistors in all three other phones as previously. Using slave socket as kindly supplied by Dave: phone A doesn't ring at all, phones B, C & D ring normally. Keeping everything else the same but swapping socket A back to the original master, spurious or otherwise ( using only blue and blue / white wires to T2 and T5 respectively): phone A rings healthily, phones B, C and D ring but sound like they're struggling.

I don't know whether the fact of there being a capacitor in master socket A is the only thing that's making the difference between whether phone A rings or doesn't, or whether there are any other components that differ between a slave and master socket that might also account for it; from what I've gleaned so far, my impression is that the capacitor is the thing that matters. If it is the case that the phone's internal capacitor has gone down ( which seems likely ), I don't know whether simply swapping the socket from a slave back to a master is the solution - although as far as that one phone either ringing or not ringing is concerned, it does seem to be. At any rate, from what I can see, trying to replace the phone's internal capacitor would be a job and a half - for me, certainly.

If it is the case that leaving phone A connected to a master socket is an acceptable solution to the 'how-to-get-phone-A-ringing-normally' problem, that seems to leave us back at square one, more or less, which is how to get the other three phones ringing normally ( or as near normal as possible ). By my reckoning - and I have to say, even I've lost track to some extent - the only difference between the scenario now and the way it was to begin with is that all four phones now have 3.3k resistors in them ( all correctly strapped - I've double-checked ). To recap: in order to make it ring, phone A is now plugged once again into it's original master socket; socket B is inaccessible and unknown; socket C is the main master socket for the property ( other than anything in the loft I don't know about ); socket D is inaccessible and unknown.

That, as they say, is the story so far. For anyone who hasn't lost the will to live ( not sure whether I should be included in that category or not ), any inspiration as to how to get phones B, C & D ringing normally would be appreciated.
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Aug 2020, 3:49 pm   #98
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 4,744
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

If the internal capacitor is o/c, there is little point in trying to replace it. Using a master socket without the internal capacitor in use would be electrically equivalent to having a working internal capacitor in circuit - and simpler to achieve. It's probably best to disconnect the internal capacitor by removing either T6-T7 or T8-T9 (or both) and have the blue linecord wire to T6. That way you know for sure that you are using just the cap in the socket.
__________________
Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)
Dave Moll is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Aug 2020, 4:09 pm   #99
russell_w_b
Dekatron
 
russell_w_b's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Penrith, Cumbria, UK.
Posts: 3,367
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Telephone Guy View Post
'I don't know whether the fact of there being a capacitor in master socket A is the only thing that's making the difference between whether phone A rings or doesn't...'
If you go back to what I wrote in Post 70, you'll appreciate that with more than one capacitor in circuit - even with 3k3 resistors fitted - you'll attempt to draw too much ringing current and, with a long line, your bells will struggle.

Your set-up should be ONE series capacitor only feeding your four bells in parallel.
__________________
Regds,

Russell W. B.
G4YLI.
russell_w_b is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 19th Aug 2020, 4:26 pm   #100
Telephone Guy
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Jan 2020
Location: Canterbury, Kent, UK.
Posts: 55
Default Re: A phone too far ...?

Hmm ...

Well ... before I saw Russell's post, I followed Dave's instructions. Removed straps T6 / T7 and T8 / T9 for good measure. I'm assuming that when you refer to the blue linecord wire, you're talking about the one that comes into the phone rather than the one that comes into the socket; when I connected the blue one that comes into the socket to T6 of the socket itself, the phone was entirely dead. That being said, since T5 and T6 are strapped together inside the phone, I couldn't see how repositioning the blue linecord from it's original position on T5 to T6 would make any difference ...? [ As a matter of interest, I hope I've reconnected the master socket correctly; the terminals appear to be simply push-fit, which seems to work, though it doesn't seem very reliable. ]

Anyhoo ... for better or worse, that's what I did. Predictably - assuming phone A's internal capacitor is in fact down - the result was the same as before, i.e. phone A rings healthily and the other three all struggle.

However: having now read Russell's post ( and referred back to post #70 accordingly ), yes, I do see the point ( at least, insofar as my rudimentary knowledge of the subject goes ). As much as I do see the point, though, the problem is that the only way to get phone A ringing at all seems to be to plug it into ( what we now know was ) the master socket it was originally plugged into, which, of course, contains the all-important capacitor. By my reckoning, between that and the actual main master socket ( socket C ), that's two capacitors; and that's without taking into account the internal capacitors in the other three phones ( which in the absence of any knowledge to the contrary, I'm assuming are working ) and potentially the capacitors in sockets B and D.

Am I not correct in understanding that your assertion, Russell, only holds true if the orange wire is connected as it should be everywhere in the circuit ( which on the basis of evidence so far, doesn't seem to be the case )? - or am I out of my depth once again?

That aside: since I can't remove the main master socket ( B ) from the equation, the only other thing I could do to reduce overall capacitance would seem to be to take the capacitors in phones B, C and / or D out of the equation by strapping them as per Dave's instruction above. Does this make sense? - I'm very concerned that with all the ongoing permutations of this, I'm going to end up doing something I can't undo!!

Last edited by Telephone Guy; 19th Aug 2020 at 4:28 pm. Reason: Adding information
Telephone Guy is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:55 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2020, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2020, Paul Stenning.