Identify vintage Radar components

[trh01uk]

Originally Posted by AC/HL

I can't help observing that posting this information earlier, if you had it, might have speeded things up a tad?

Bill,

I am sure the OP will provide his own explanation, but I doubt whether he had it (the naval stuff looks like it came off the Collingwood website) - and I don't think either document actually moves the discussion forward at all.

The fact that 2000c/s units turned up in naval systems shows only that they found it easier to add an extra power unit than redesign a radar unit originally intended for airborne use. It doesn't indicate that these particular items are naval. Indeed with ZC..... numbers they are almost certainly British Army. Naval units would have "AP....." (Admiratly Pattern) numbers.

Richard

[AC/HL]

OK, point taken.
Doesn't really matter anyway, nothing lost.

[Sean Williams]

I've sent a link to this thread to a good friend of mine - probably one of the leading enthusiasts in the history of RADAR - if I get any helpful comments I will post them here.

[Sean Williams]

Back again, here is a response from Dr. Phil Judkins - hope this is helpful

Parts are definitely Army, and not late (e.g. not AA4 Mk7, where the PSUs are #s 56 - 60), and there are a number of comments on the thread which are a bit wide of the mark, so attached are 3 pages from the Army Radar Official History (the 'Red Book') which is well worth a read in itself. These pages are the 2pp quick ref to Army radar types, and a 1page time-chart - please circulate to the forum with my compliments, and advise that the first Centimetric radar was not RAF, but Naval (Type NT271) which then became Army CD = Coast Defence Mk IV. A lot of Army and Navy gear used RAF units with 80v 2000Hz supplies (obtained by inverters from their usual Army/Navy power), simply because the RAF had high priority due to Lord Cherwell cancelling the other services' orders (!), so the Army and Navy used RAF gear because it was there! The CV251 was used only in Army service, I think - it's an MOS type - and I'll try to search for a closer ID; currently my guess is it's CA or CD, rather than AA or SLC or FA.

I will of course pass on any other information that comes to light

Sean

[BobGreen]

I worked on a couple (S and X Band) of Anti-aircraft Radar Type 3 Mk.7 in the 1960's. There were never many of them made as we could not then divert the resources needed. MIT Rad Lab shipped 100s of their version (SCR-584) to Europe later in the War. I would say these parts are somewhat later so may be from things like tail warning radar or the Village Inn radar aimed rear gun.

[jon7540]

Originally Posted by trh01uk

I am sure the OP will provide his own explanation, but I doubt whether he had it (the naval stuff looks like it came off the Collingwood website)

That's right - two of the earlier posts directed me to the 2 documents but apologies for not posting these sooner.

Also, thank you all for the responses. Googling Dr Phil Judkins who kindly provided documents on Army Radar types (thanks Sean) led me to the Purbeck Radar Museum Trust (which has pointers to a vast amount of information on early radar) and also the University of Sheffield Radar Archive Tomlin Collection (local to me so will be going to have a look at this first).

Longer term I am going to have to part with this gear due to pressure to clear the space that it and a lot of other vintage instrumentation and test equipment is occupying. I was originally going to ebay it but since it may have some historical value can anyone suggest a museum to which it could be donated... perhaps the IWM at Duxford or the like?

Jon

[trh01uk]

Jon,

Sean may have more information, but I rather doubt whether anyone does have "vast amounts of information on early radar" - at least not the sort that allows the identification of specific bits of equipment such as you are asking about here.

I have spent a lot of time (and money) trying to track down such information and have not found it. That includes trips to the National Archive and Hendon, both of which have extremely patchy information of this kind. If you do find technical information in this Sheffield archive - I will be very interested to hear about it.

The interest in radar has nearly all been social history. In other words, who did what and when. But when you ask exactly what was in the radar kit that so many history books discuss, you quickly find the hard detail dries up. Obviously, there are few people either interested in or capable of understanding the technical stuff - so authors (who want to sell their books) concentrate on things that anyone (with/without a technical background) can understand.

I'm afraid I definitely would not advise donating anything like this to Duxford . They have a very mixed history of actually looking after things - some is excellent - and some is bad. They are apparently not allowed (by their governing statutes) to pass on anything they don't want to people who do want the stuff. They scrap it.

Sorry, that's not more helpful, since you want to give them to someone who can make some use of them. I will have a think whether there is somewhere more suitable.

We could start a whole thread about the "historical value" of a set of "random, unidentified, vintage electronic bits". They are worthless while they remain unidentified - they need a "context" - just like stuff dug out of the ground has no archeological value unless the context (i.e. where they were found in relation to other things) is recorded. Parts like this can be invaluable to someone who is trying to restore the specific equipment they came from - if no technical information survives, then the parts are the only record we have of the equipment.

Historical value in my mind is related to "how much information can we extract from this item?" At present, that is very little, while we don't know which equipment these bits came from. Unfortunately, many people confuse historical value with "how much I can get for this on ebay"! Ebay prices have very little to do with history - they just reflect the values collectors put on things.

Richard

[Sean Williams]

Hi Jon,

Sadly, IWM has a very poor record regarding RADAR, they accessioned a very large quantity of this type of equipment, indeed, I would go so far to say the reference collection of airborne military radar equipment, along with a very impressive collection of communications equipment. Where is it now? some tucked away in storage, a huge quantity scrapped (read tons of) nearly all of it never to see the light of day again....

However, it is your kit, and your decision.....

I have spoken to Phil again, and I think he may well join us here, he is however extremely busy, so responses may be sporadic, Phil now holds an amazing library of documentation - many thousands of documents (I know, I moved most of them!), but it is not for public access, I am sure however, if there is any more info to be had we will find out soon enough

In the meantime, I will keep an eye open for anything else that may help you.

Sean

[m0cemdave]

Sean, I remember spending several days looking at that radar collection when it was at BP. It was a fascinating timeline of airborne radar development. Best of all, it was laid out for close inspection and it was possible to see how components and circuitry had developed as technology progressed - which was a very educational experience. I am horrified to read that the collection has been dispersed and more so to find so much was scrapped, having been under the impression that most of it went to Duxford for safe keeping.

[Sean Williams]

Dont get me wrong a lot of that display still survives, but most of it has gone into storage, it is very doubtful that it will ever see display again (well in my lifetime)

A lot of people that visited the Museum at BP will not have been aware of the other 70-100 tons of exhibits we used to administer......

The big problem with collections of this nature is that of storage and display space - when we left BP two thirds of the collection was put into rented storage, this was very expensive, the costs of this were borne by the collection's owner, without any question. The remainder was shipped to another privately owned storage facility, from memory some 30-40 truck loads, add to that three 40ft ISO containers, and this gives you an idea of the enormity of the task!

I hope these items end up with someone that will make good use of them - one day radar will get the interest it deserves....

[jon7540]

Richard, Sean

Thanks for the advice - I'll sit tight with this gear for now and see if any more details turn up.

I take your point about discovering technical information about early radar. I recently visited the Radar Museum in Norfolk - the guides and presenters were excellent in terms of, as you say, 'who did what and when' but any technical questions seemed to be beyond their knowledge.

Storage is a worry and that is my current problem. Having rescued various classic pieces of valved instrumation (Marconi, Advance, Airmec etc.) I am loathe to scrap them but they are generally large and heavy and I have to clear the space they occupy. I have sold oddments on ebay - some for little more than the cost of pp in the hope that the buyer will restore / use them. I did recently sell a stripped down 182 Fishpond Indicator unit chassis and display tube which actually went for a surprising sum. Agreed the front panel and graticule was in good condition but I did not expect so much interest in this. It has gone to someone who is planning to re-create a full H2S so hopefully will not end up on the scrap heap.

In sorting out my storage area I've come across another piece of equipment which I would like to identify. I bought it as a complete unit in the early to mid 1960's (I think) to strip down and convert to a 'scope so there's various parts missing now. May be I should start a new thread for this but I'm attaching a few pictures here just in case someone recognises it. It's labelled as a 'Mixer Unit Type 79'. It has a VCR139 crt and a 230v 50Hz Gardener mains transformer. On the chassis there is a frequency calibration chart labelled 'Wavemeter' and dated 21/6/54 so clearly not WW2. This item is big and heavy so will have to go sooner or later.

Jon

[M0FYA Andy]

Jon,

As the purchaser of the stripped-down Fishpond Indicator, I can give every assurance that it won't end up on the scrap heap, at least not in my lifetime!

According to A.P.2463, the Mixer Unit is part of 'Radar, 13 & 14', it needs a bit more digging to identify what they were.

Andy

[Ed_Dinning]

Hi Gents, a valuable source for identifying these parts is the adverts section in WW. These units were often pictured and details of the system they had been removed from was given; usually with the advice that it would make a high quality scope!
A pity most bound volumes exclude the ads, they were often one of the more interesting bits.

Ed

[jon7540]

Originally Posted by M0FYA Andy

As the purchaser of the stripped-down Fishpond Indicator, I can give every assurance that it won't end up on the scrap heap, at least not in my lifetime!

According to A.P.2463, the Mixer Unit is part of 'Radar, 13 & 14', it needs a bit more digging to identify what they were.

Andy

Thanks for the re-assurance - I hope the re-build is going to plan. If I come across any more bits that may be of use I'll PM you. Thanks also for the info re Radar Nos 13 & 14. A quick search suggests there may be more information about these at the National Archives in Kew (http://discovery.nationalarchives.go...ils/r/C3369380) but it's not been digitised so it's either a visit or ordering a copy. I'll probably part with the Mixer Unit and just hang on to the Magnetron gear about which I originally posted. I've not had chance to visit the SU library Radar collection yet but will post again when I have.

Thanks to Ed for the suggestion re old magazines. I've got some pdfs of vintage PWs and WW so will be looking through those.
Jon

[trh01uk]

Folks,

just to ad a little bit more on the Mixer Type 79, the Radar Types 13 and 14 are described here:
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/rotor/type13.htm
http://www.radarpages.co.uk/mob/rotor/type14.htm

It seems the TYpe 14 was a Type 13 turned on its side. What is surprising is how early these are. The TYpe 14 is part of Chain Home Extra Low and was apparently working as early as 1944. That raises the question of the significance of the 1954 date - that may be a manufacturing date, or perhaps a test/refurbishment date. But essentially this is a radar unit of wartime origins, and of probably the most important family of radars we had - Chain Home.

OK - so this was a late model. The early ones could not see aircraft arriving at low altitudes, so the first improvement was "Chain Home Low" and the the extra low - as here - to stop enemy planes flying in "under the radar". As far as I know, very little Chain Home equipment survives. Definitely something to handle with care - particularly as regards where it ends up.

Richard

[trh01uk]

Folks,

to help eliminate one of the possible equipments mentioned earlier in this thread, the Field Artillery Radar - I have pulled out the EMER (P382) for "Radar F.A. No.1, Mk.1". Its dated 31st October 1946, so its probably a bit earlier than we suspect the original parts are that the OP asked about.

I haven't read every word of the doc, but it doesn't mention the following parts listed:

• Power Unit No 50 ZC27194
• Amplifier Unit No 5 ZC22273
• Tuning Indicator Unit No 2 ZC22276

There are no "ZCxxxxx" numbers given. And the units in the F.A. radar are named things like "A Unit", "C Unit", "Amplifier Unit D" and "R.F.Unit". This might reflect the mentality of the team working on the "No.1 Mk.1" - they couldn't conceive of anyone ever improving on it, so didn't see the need to give the units any numbers!

The magnetron type CV251 is the only item in common here. Its a 3.2cm (approx 9.375GHz) unit, so this makes it "3rd generation radar" - with the 1st generation being the VHF units, the 2nd generation being the 3GHz magnetron based systems. The 3rd generation came along sometime late in WWII.

What is interesting is that this Radar F.A. No.1 Mk.1 uses 80V 2000c/s supplies, as well as 230V 50c/s 3-phase. A petrol engine in a trailer drives 3 alternators suppliying:

• 230V 50c/s 3-phase 5kW
• 80V 2000c/s 1kW
• 80V 2000c/s 600W

I've not found an explanation in the document as to why they used the 2000c/s power supplies as opposed to 50c/s. I suppose it didn't matter if the unit was to be towed out into a field where no mains supplies would be available.

So, sorry this doesn't move the discussion forward very much! EMERs may exist somewhere for all the other various anti-aircraft radars (of which there were many) - but I've never come across them.

Richard

[Sean Williams]

The explanation of the high cycles supplies is quite simple - The Air Ministry got the lions share of funding for R and D work, so all major items built were designed with aviation in mind.

Far easier to knock up a ground power unit for high cycles, and have standardised modules for both ground and airborne use, than to design and build separate systems.

[trh01uk]

Sean,

that's true, but they didn't necessarily do that. Just consider the GEE airborne equipment and its ground equivalent. They went to the trouble of making a version with 50c/s power units built in.

Richard

[trh01uk]

Despite my previous post about the Radar F.A. No.1 Mk.1, where I said that none of the units described here appear in that document, I've now found something that looks very much like one of the units.

Amplifier Unit No.5 shown in the photo from OP, is very much like something called the "pre-amplifier" in my field artillery radar document. Compare the photo of the unit with the line drawing, and note not just the four valves, but also the four tuning adjusters poking through the chassis. And further note where the adjusters are in relation to the valve holders. Looks like a very similar unit to me.

Having said that there are some obvious differences - mainly the two mounting brackets on the top side of the amp no.5, which don't appear in the line drawing of the pre-amp. That might be just draughtman's licence (in not showing every last bit of metal) or they might actually be slightly different.

I still don't think these units are from Radar F.A. No.1, but it does suggest that a component of that system was at least re-used or re-deployed in some other equipment.

Richard

[trh01uk]

I've just obtained the EMER for AA Radar No.3 Mk.7. That contains Power Units Nos 46, 47 and 48, but not No.50. It would be unwise to read too much into this and assume that Nos 49, 50, 51, etc will have been used in the next AA radar to be produced, but it does look like a possibility that the No.50 was in one of these radars.

Another oblique piece of evidence is the numbering of other units in this radar. For instance the IF Amplifier is ZC25833 - a similar type of number to those given by the OP.

Again the system uses 80V 1500c/s as one of its power sources.

Richard