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Old 15th Oct 2017, 10:58 pm   #1
bikerhifinut
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Default An observation on replacement Shure stylii

I hope this may be of help and enlightenment to those who are looking for a new Shure stylus for an M75ED.

A while back I bought an Ed saunders replacement stylus for my old M75ED. mainly because at that time the price was less than one from mantra Audio and also i was curious about the spiel on the website about their stylii being specially selected for them in the swiss factory (yeah right, but cynicism aint the point here).

Anyway said stylus arrived eventually, in a nice wee gold coloured box all nicely padded out. On the Box there was a label stating "min tracking weight 1.5g". Now we all know the original M75ED tracked from 0.75g so there was the first rabbit out of the hat. That in itself didnt bother me as it was going in a rega arm and so a heavier tracking force range just might be a bit more synergistic?

Anyway i was very disappointed, the splashy sibilants and generally coarse sound meant that it rapidly went back in its box.

So recently I had urgent need to put a cartridge in a turntable I had obtained for a family member. Again with a Rega arm. So just to get things checked and up and running I put the Shure in. I got a bit curious last week and did a bit of digging online and found a table of info on lenco heaven that made me think. I had already had my suspicions that I'd been supplied with the N75EJ stylus which is a lower compliance version with the same stylus dimensions, recommended tracking forcs of 1.5 to 3.0 g. But there was also another variant I discovered. The M75EC (stylus n75EC) and this beastie according to Shures data tracked at 2.0 to a whopping 4.0g, which isnt too scary if you think on that a g800 tracks 2.5 to 3.5g. So I did a cross reference on mantras website as they have photos of their swiss made pattern stylii. Lo and behold the colours of the stylus holder were a bit of a giveaway although i accept pattern stuff can't be guaranteed to look the samemy replacement was in a brown plastic mount, and their EC variant was also in the brown mount. This correlated to the info on lenco heavens site.

Anyway I thought got nowt to lose here and cranked the tracking force up to 3g, right in the middle of the EC range. And the sound snapped in to focus so to speak. The horrid sibilance and end of side mistracking had gone, although very bright and edgy recordings can still excite it a bit. And it now sounds like a decent 1970's MM cartridge. I noticed that the cantilever wasnt sagging low with the extra downforce and so that empirical evidence gave strength to my theory that I'd got the EC stylus.

I'm not worried that 3g will damage any LPs. a hell of a lot of mine have been played on heavier in their long lives and still sound fresh on my main deck which is a good modern arm and cartridge combination.

So I hope if anybody has had a similar experience to me that I can shed a bit of light on it.

Interesting to note that the elliptical stylus on the ED EJ and EC variants is identical at .002 x.007 in (I think its inches not mills). So the difference has to be cantilever and compliance.

Worth noting if anyone might want for whatever reason to mount a Shure on to a later higher mass tonearm that might maybe perhaps benefit from a slightly higher tracking force?

Andy
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Old 15th Oct 2017, 11:41 pm   #2
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

I'm a little more concerned that it seems you didn't get what you ordered.

I rather enjoyed my old M75ED back in the early 70s... in an actual Acos Rega turntable with the original Lustre arm. Back when Rega was a model name.

David
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 12:01 am   #3
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Third party styluses are a minefield. I agree that you should have received what you ordered.

The EC was a very rare cartridge/stylus and I'm not sure why Shure made it originally. The vast majority of arms needing a high tracking weight would have used the spherical 75-6. Maybe it was for use in radio studios.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 12:42 am   #4
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

It was mainly posted to flag up that I'd got the wrong part, but if anybody else has had similar issues and hadn't worked out like i did what had happened then at least they'd have an idea.
I suspect that stylus was used in things like autochangers and disco decks etc. The US seemed to hang on to autochangers longer then the UK did?

A
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 1:06 am   #5
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Seems this is world wide !!

I ordered an origional V15 MR, and got as shown.
$150 gone!!

The cartridge still works I guess, and is still hard to beat. I have MC carts as well, but they dont work in an SME arm.

Joe
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 6:38 am   #6
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

The Shure "C" series were intended for record changers. Capital Radio used the spherical version M75CS for years and nobody ever complained about sound quality.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 8:14 am   #7
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

It's annoying that you didn't get what you wanted. I just looked at the Ed Saunders site and all it says is "Compare to Shure N75". No further info so I guess it's a bit of a pig in a poke. At least they indicated the tracking weight on the box.

In general, if you have an old stylus that works it's better to get it retipped by Expert Stylus.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 11:08 am   #8
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

I agree with Bluepilot. For over 6 years I send my old shures and ortofon om units to Expert Stylus and they give me an opinion on the state of the tip and a quote for a new one. This, I would hasten to add is for any serious vinyl playing. I did notice, in the autumn bulletin, adds section at the back someone offering styli for elderly cartridges.

For the serious vinyl repro look no further that The Expert Stylus Co. Very helpfull and introduced me to entry level moving coil. It was not cheap and I had to save my pounds but the Denon DL103 having had the original stylus sawn off and a saphire cantilever carrying a 'paratrace' tip (his own design) is an experience in music making I have never heard before. Wyndham Hodgson is the proprietor and what he does not know about the making of record playing styli can be quietly forgotten.
I speak as a very satisfied customer and have no other connection with the firm.
regards.
Mike
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 12:10 pm   #9
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

The original Shure spec for the 75ED is .0007"x.0002", maximum tracking force 1.5g.
The 75EJ and 75EC are .0007"x.0004" which is very useful for mono records as well.

Modern, non-Shure replacements for the 75ED are likely to be .0007"x.0003".

If you have deep pockets, Jico in Japan make a N75 replacement as part of their Neo-SAS series. This uses a profiled tip and makes a significant upgrade in performance.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 5:28 pm   #10
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Note that the correct spelling should be "styli", not "stylii". One of them is a stylus, not a stylius.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 9:59 pm   #11
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Quote:
Originally Posted by julie_m View Post
Note that the correct spelling should be "styli", not "stylii". One of them is a stylus, not a stylius.
You are, of course, correct. I shall now don the dunces hat and stand in the corner.

A.
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Old 16th Oct 2017, 10:13 pm   #12
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Just to put a postscript on this cautionary tale, Ed Saunders sold his business to another party some while ago.
So I'd hazard a guess and postulate that the new proprietor perhaps doesn't know or maybe care about the various options in the M75 cartridge body?
Anyway the Dollar exchange rate now means that it's a lot cheaper to buy your Swiss made pattern jobs from the likes of Mantra and at least it would be easier to complain and get satisfaction if a "wrong un" was delivered.
To the suggestions about the Japanese Jico parts i have read more than one positive report on their overall quality.
A couple or so years ago I replaced the damaged stylus on my dads M75ED with one of mantra's swiss made replacements and it certainly sounds fine on his ancient PL12D.
And just to reiterate, I posted the details of my experience so that others might make their own views and hopefully more informed decisions if needing such a part.

A.
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 5:41 am   #13
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

If you're thinking of buying an aftermarket stylus for almost any magnetic cartridge you need to consider:

Are you being offered an exact replacement in terms of tip size and tracking force or a "will fit"? It's easy to find the manufacturers' original specifications out there on the web.

Some aftermarket styli are very good, others not so and the retailer's price does not always reflect this.

Most, if not all Shure styli have a tiny tie wire soldered between the cantilever and tube, which stabilises the suspension and provides a static discharge route. Some replacements don't have this and you can't tell until you look carefully inside the tube.

The strength of the magnet fitted also varies, and can affect the cartridge output significantly. Again, there's no way of knowing until you play a record and the volume has changed.

The three N75 styli in the first picture are L-R, Jico SAS, Shure US production early thin cantilever, Shure Mexican later production thick cantilever. So even the originals differed.

The second picture shows a selection of Shure original and aftermarket mounted N44 styli - how do you know which are the best?

That said, the aftermarket often gives a lifeline in letting us use cartridges that would otherwise be useless. And there's almost an audiophool alert in this post
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 7:03 pm   #14
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Quote:
Originally Posted by bikerhifinut View Post
And just to reiterate, I posted the details of my experience so that others might make their own views and hopefully more informed decisions if needing such a part.
Er? it's "iterate"
Actually, this is a superb thread and one that really makes one glad they joined the forum.
Thanks
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Old 17th Oct 2017, 11:06 pm   #15
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

I'll bow to your superior knowledge Joe. I thought reiterate was correct as it was the 3rd time I'd made that particular point. It's been 44years since I studied English as a formal subject so I hope you can cut me a bit of slack!

I'm listening to Leonard Cohen "I'm your man" LP as I type this via the young un's Planar3 and that darned Shure and it really is sounding good. I quite like the slightly rough "edge" to the sound, certainly no worse than many (most?) modern budget cartridges. And it's likely closer to the way i first heard this LP on similar period gear? Although I confess it was first heard by me on an early CD release back in the day when I rented CD's from the public library, but I would buy an LP at less than a fiver rather than the CD at £15 back in the early 80's. I backed the tracking force off to 2.5g and haven't noticed any obvious mistracking like it did at sub 2g forces.

And yes Joe I do like the idea that I am getting a pleasing sound out of a piece of vintage, dare i say "classic" equipment, that otherwise would only be adding to the landfill issue.

I do take on board the point about being sold the wrong stylus, but as it would be a fairly pointless task to both prove my complaint and get a refund especially from a non UK supplier, I thought I would see what i could make from this "pig in a poke" and on that score I am quite a happy camper after a bit of basic detective work. And if some other poor unfortunate has done the same as me, at least I hope I can have given some pointers on how to make the best of things. And as an aside any dealings I have had with Mantra in the UK have been good experiences, it was from their site i finally made the connections.

A.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 10:11 am   #16
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Not my intent to raise a potential can of worms here but rest assured that threads such as yours will be most helpful for many; be it now or in the future, the note below refers.

I am a switchgear and HV man who has reached the semi retirement stage and who is now able (and allowed?) to pursue an interest in period HiFi. The root of my learning however was back in the mid 60s at which time one was schooled in valve technology. Coupled with a career path in heavy engineering much knowledge from an ontological viewpoint would have been lost.
Similarly, there is a stark difference between current that flows through electronic circuitry and a 400kV, 63kA breaker under fault conditions (I2T) and associated technologies.
It is your type of thread that brings about knowledge for those such as me who would normally be reliant upon what it says on the box in such matters. Furthermore, the initial methodology of process employed to decide what to buy in the first place would have no thorough epistemological reasoning associated with it.
Apart from the technological aspects of any thread there will always be a cost associated with most subjects discussed. Threads such as yours highlights whether one can feel satisfied with what they have bought or whether in fact they have been swindled.
However, it does also say something about getting value for money and perhaps more importantly; what to expect and to seek advice/support for any purchase selection criteria before spending anything.
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 3:54 pm   #17
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Some years ago I bought Shure V-15 styli from Ed Saunders and it was a superb replacement. so again some time later I bought a Shure M95ED from him not knowing that it had changed hands this one took 5 weeks arrive but looked Ok but it wasn't the suspension collapsed rendering it unusuable, I sent a message to the proprietor and after 3 weeks I got reply, saying if I would provide my details she would send another, this I did but to no replacement styli turned up, I sent a few messages but nothing came back in any shape or form, so for me this has killed off ever buying from this outfit again, I have always had good results with the German replacement styli but I have few hi end magnetic cartridges and if it comes to replacements I think I will bight the bullet and go for the Jico styli from what I have heard and read they get very high ratings.
Don't forget Shure's own styli did not always have praise heaped on them for alignment and polish
Gary
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 4:46 pm   #18
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

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Originally Posted by sp10mk11 View Post
Don't forget Shure's own styli did not always have praise heaped on them for alignment and polish
That was back in the pre-CD days, when cartridges and stylii were produced in vast numbers, particularly by the big players like Shure. I'm not surprised there was product variability.

Alas, when I thought I was getting out of vinyl I sold my V15 III. Wish I'd kept it.

I now use a Denon DL103, with the Zu-audio mod (they take the motor out of the plastic housing and resite it in a machined aluminium housing)

Craig
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Old 18th Oct 2017, 8:16 pm   #19
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Hello Craig I remember a company doing the same with a V15 I cannot remember the name though.
Sonically I would prefer the 103 over the V15 so I think you are in good place with cartridges.
Yes you may well be correct about the times when manufacturers would churn out styli that were not up to spec.
Gary
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Old 17th Nov 2017, 1:25 pm   #20
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Default Re: An observation on replacement Shure stylii

Update.
I found a new in its original sealed box JICO replacement stylus for the M75ED on Ebay and priced at about £15 less than importing direct from JICO in japan not counting any import taxes.
So I snapped it up.
And I am very pleased with it so far.
Tracks lovely within its 0.75 to 1.5 recommended tracking range, admittedly at the high end in a Rega arm. Handles sibilants and "edgy" treble very well. And sounds remarkably good overall.
I observed that the cantilever is a very thin delicate item which is a point to note, take care when brushing fluff off i guess! But on the basis that losing excessive mass at this point in the reproducing chain is only a good thing, then it should be good. Stylus is, as noted by other knowledgable pundits 0.3 x 0.7 mil so not an exact replacement in stylus dimensions but i wont let that worry me.
So a from me and even at about £40 if imported direct I'd still go for it if I had an older Shure in my system rather than faff on with a modern replacement which I think would be a bit inferior at that price?
Reminded me of why I liked the old Shure M75ED in the first place and why it was the "go to" cartridge in the heyday of the PL12D and its stablemates.
That it still holds its own in the context of a modern turntable and phono amp setup says it all for me. I do wonder if JICO actually make a product that is a bit of an improvement on the original?
Andy.
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