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Vintage Television and Video Vintage television and video equipment, programmes, VCRs etc. |
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19th Jul 2018, 9:59 pm | #21 |
Dekatron
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Apparently France starting transmissions on 455 lines in 1937 but when the Germans invaded they converted the Eiffel Tour to their 441 standard that I assume was the same as the picture in post #14.
I think the Germans only started using that 441 standard in 1939 so just when the extra board pulses came in I really don't know. Peter |
19th Jul 2018, 10:31 pm | #22 |
Dekatron
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
I believe the reason why the 819 line system had only one broad frame sync pulse is because the multi-pulse frame sync train is an RCA patent. The Marconi-EMI 405 line system has the long serrated frame pulse because EMI was an RCA affiliate.
That's why the Baird 240/25 system had only one long frame sync pulse. BTL didn't have access to certain patents. DFWB. DFWB. |
19th Jul 2018, 10:35 pm | #23 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
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20th Jul 2018, 12:49 am | #24 | |
Nonode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
I have found and extracted quite a few of the pertinent reports. This spreadsheet gives an overview as to what is available year-by-year: TV Systems - CCIR Reports.xlsx From a quick glance, it looks as if the positioning of the system E field pulse could have been changed between 1953 and 1956, so I have attached those two reports. CCIR 1953 London Report 35 TV Systems.pdf CCIR 1956 Warssaw Report 83 TV Systems.pdf Cheers, |
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20th Jul 2018, 12:52 am | #25 | |
Nonode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
Cheers, |
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20th Jul 2018, 2:38 am | #26 | |
Nonode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
In the Ekco, the use of an ECC81 pair in the front end looks to have been straight out of Philips Book IIIC. Do you know what the IF is? That would have been before the standard VIF of 28.05 MHz came about. Cheers, |
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20th Jul 2018, 6:21 am | #27 | |
Hexode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
No, 441 lines was since March 1935 or before in operation, during the Olympic games 1936 Television became popular. Germany had the first regular TV service in the world: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLDcA51lKqA The first really good working TV sets were made in 1934. Regards, SIXMILLION DOLLARMAN
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20th Jul 2018, 7:37 am | #28 |
Heptode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
The German 441 line standard found in a German 1939 book.
Jac |
20th Jul 2018, 10:13 am | #29 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
German Dalek wrote: "No, 441 lines was since March 1935 or before in operation, during the Olympic games 1936 Television became popular."
Surely the 1935 TV transmission standard in Germany was the 180line 25 FPS system which was similar in some respects to the Baird 240/25 system? DFWB. Last edited by FERNSEH; 20th Jul 2018 at 10:24 am. |
20th Jul 2018, 10:23 am | #30 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Jac wrote: The German 441 line standard found in a German 1939 book.
Note the single broad frame pulse and the picture blanking period of only eleven lines, approximately 1millisecond. DFWB. |
20th Jul 2018, 10:26 am | #31 | |
Heptode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
It was 180 line 25 FPS. See attached photo of a part of an original Telefunken publication. Jac |
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20th Jul 2018, 10:52 am | #32 | |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
As David and Jac have suggested I believe the cameras used at the 1936 Olympics were the massive electronic camera that used a technology similar to the Farnsworth camera (hence the need for the massive lens) and the intermediate film camera and both operated 180 line 25 Hz non-interlaced (i.e. flickering like Baird's 240 line system.) http://www.earlytelevision.org/olympics_1936.html In fairness to German technology I believe Dieckmann & Hell patented a camera in 1925 that prevented Farnsworth from getting patent rights in Europe for his design. Peter |
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20th Jul 2018, 11:24 am | #33 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
"See attached photo of a part of an original Telefunken publication." Jac.
The second attachment describes exactly a photo cell mosaic of a Farnsworth camera. "uber dieser kuenstliche Netzhaut und reizt jedem Sehnerv, __die winzig kleinen Fotozellen" Seems to translate that each activated tiny photo cell acts like a capacitor and discharges into a load resistor. Not the storage principle of the Iconoscope. DFWB. |
20th Jul 2018, 11:46 am | #34 | |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Quote:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikonoskop https://youtu.be/We5zJVo-5XA Ignore the Youtube inappropriate content warning. Peter Last edited by peter_scott; 20th Jul 2018 at 12:05 pm. |
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20th Jul 2018, 12:34 pm | #35 |
Heptode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
From Archiv für das Post- und Fernmeldewesen, 37. Jahrgang Nr. 3: see attachment.
Jac |
20th Jul 2018, 8:20 pm | #36 |
Tetrode
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Apologies for entering so late into the discussion, but want to go back to the orginal question: this is almost certainly the Philips TF1786, one of the very last sets of what I call the bigger TX1410 generation. See here.
Attached a valve diagram of the TF1786, which shows both the correct picture tube and tuner valves, so seems to confirm. This was clearly a cost down version of the "regular" TF1757 from 1956, with 24 valves in total, whereas this version only has 18. As suggested this was mainly achieved at the expense of video bandwidth, although there were also three valves saved in the power supply. You can still find a lot about this set on French forums. The tuner must then have been the FD 090 78 (PCC84 & PCF80, square box, 28.05MHz VIF, 39,2MHz SIF, 12 channels F2-F12), can you confirm that? (a close-up picture of the tuner label would be nice). Last question from Synchrodyne: the EBF80 was used as IF amplifier and sound AM demodulator. From 1953 to 1958 this was a standard valve in all Philips sets, often used twice, mainly in the sound IF. Cheers, Pieter |
20th Jul 2018, 8:40 pm | #37 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Good evening Pieter,
There is only one label on the Philips tuner and it shows the serial number of the unit. In fact one of the reasons why the owner brought the set to the workshop was to have the tuner repaired. Later on I'll determine the sound and vision intermediate frequencies and report my findings. DFWB. |
21st Jul 2018, 12:53 pm | #38 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Pieter H wrote: "The tuner must then have been the FD 090 78 (PCC84 & PCF80, square box, 28.05MHz VIF, 39,2MHz SIF, 12 channels F2-F12), can you confirm that? (a close-up picture of the tuner label would be nice)."
The sound IF is indeed 39.2Mhz and the vision IF 28.5Mhz. The channel F2 coils are present and I assume for F8 and F8A the same coils are employed. DFWB. |
22nd Jul 2018, 9:07 am | #39 |
Retired Dormant Member
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
Hello Everybody,
I enter the discussion to put some infos about the 1935 TV era in France. It is interesting to notice that, meanwhile Barthelemy and La Compagnie des Compteurs in Paris began to broadcast 180 lines with a mechanical marvelous nipkow disc machine in december parallel with the 60 lines cam, the german had the iconoscope ready for broadcast 180 lines and then 441 lines. This was ok for the 1936 olympic games.. Have a good week all of you ! Roger |
22nd Jul 2018, 9:33 am | #40 |
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Re: Philips 819 line TV receiver.
The German 441 line stuff doesn't appear until late 1937. There was some dabbling with 375 line after Telefunken bought the rights to RCA iconoscope technology but I think it's true to say that all the 1936 Olympic television was 180 line as the public viewing rooms were not equipped for any higher standard.
Peter |