The Audiophoolery Thread.

[m0cemdave]

Sad thing is, for that money you could probably buy some real acoustic treatment that actually does something useful...

[Craig Sawyers]

For a lot less than you might think https://gikacoustics.co.uk/

When I suggested to SWMBO that what I needed was some Monster traps from the above company, I was surprised at the vehemence of the NO!

But they will also print artwork of your choice on them, or a photograph. NO!!

It'll just look like a wall hanging or tapestry....NO!!!

I gave up, which anyone who knows me, is most unlike me. But on this I knew I was beaten.

Craig

[The Philpott]

The Shakti website is shambolic even by the standards of 'this type of thing'
I fear Hoffmann may have long since lost his bearings. I'm not going to ridicule his barnet, but will make the point that having loads of hair over your ears does dull sound somewhat, meaning you're in no position to judge properly.

Dave

[Philips210]

Seeing the violin on the floor, my first thoughts were they look like a pair of glorified music stands.

Regards,
Symon

[Ed Baker]

How to impress the totty at HiFi shows.

https://www.thevinyladventure.com/product/acoustical-systems...e-professional-phono-alignment-set/

Regards, 007

[fetteler]

A snip I reckon at only £3,475.00.

The custom made in Germany attaché-style aluminum suitcase is even made in Germany for goodness sake! What more could a gullible person with more money than sense want!

Steve.

[Craig Sawyers]

If you were buying the Tech Das Air Force 1 https://techdas.jp/pages/air-force-one/ or the Thorens New Reference https://thorens.com/en/thorens-news-infos/302-thorens-204-news-en-mobile.html each in the quarter million bracket before you buy the arms and cartridges, £3,475 is loose change.

The German company who make this kit of alignment bits won't sell many, with most going to the exceptionally well heeled.

Craig

[Radio Wrangler]

Hmm, the first one is from a bunch of people unaware that air flow in air bearings exhibits turbulence and creates random noise if you're lucky, periodic oscillation if you're unlucky. I reckon even the thought of that would dampen the ardour of any audiophool. The name is a bit kitsch, they should have spent more on choosing it. Also, with a resilient bearing, where is the much vaunted stiff connection from platter back round to the cartridge now?

The Thorens document is a hoot. Read down and there is a diagram about how this active anti-vibration system works and it uses something called Sky hook dampers, nicely illustrated by lines representing linkages to clouds...... I kid thee not.

David

[Sergeauckland]

What saddens me is that companies like Thorens, and Nagra, and more recently EMT, which were founded and once operated on strictly engineering based principles, now pander to the wealthy Audiophool market, with products devoid of much technical merit.

I understand that there is a huge market in Asia for European legacy brands provided they're expensive enough.

S

[Craig Sawyers]

The original Thorens Reference was introduced in 1979, so the idea certainly predates any modern trend in Thoren's philosophy.

https://www.audiohifistore.com/product-page/thorens-reference-black

Craig

[Sergeauckland]

Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers

The original Thorens Reference was introduced in 1979, so the idea certainly predates any modern trend in Thoren's philosophy.

https://www.audiohifistore.com/product-page/thorens-reference-black

Craig

I didn't know about the Thorens Reference at that time, the TD124 was where I thought their range stopped. The excellent TD150s and 160s were their mainstream models.

According to Thorens History on their website:-

The highlight of this period was the Thorens Reference, a handmade 90 kg drive for up to three tonearms, developed in 1979 without regard to cost and effort. The aim is to demonstrate what is technically feasible. The edition was officially limited to 100 pieces.

Another company that's gone all 'Audiophool' is DCS. They started making very technically advanced ADCs and DACs for the professional market, housed in prosaic 19" 1U rack-mount boxes. They also did custom products for broadcasters, and military research. Then, with the departure of Mike Story, they went full-on audiophool by repacking their otherwise excellent devices in fancy boxes, giving them composers' names rather than model numbers, and radically increasing their prices. I presume they could see the way Pro digital products were going to become commodity items.

S.

[Ed Baker]

Hello folks, as a matter of interest how many of us attend The Grand Festivals of Audiophoolics around the country or Europe. I went to one back in ‘98 when invited along by a friend who was heavily hyperphooled, I ended up with a headache. I have viewed a few modern day audio shows on You’ve been Tubed - some of the artillery on show looks like it would floor me if I had the guts to go.Where on earth are they taking are brains to. Regards, Ed

[knobtwiddler]

Serge - I think you'll find that EMT lives on in trademark-only. The real company was bought by Barco Industries a few decades back.

https://www.stefanopasini.it//images/EMT_50_Jahre.pdf

NB - I recently tested an expensive (but small) phono amp from one of the firms you mention. It cost over £2K from memory. It runs on a 9v battery. I found it to have extensive 2nd and 3rd harmonic distortion (inexcusable in a phono preamp, if you consider that the 5534 can give THD that's under -100dBV) and had extremely low headroom (client brought it to me, as he felt it couldn't handle higher output carts). I don't think the 9v battery was the problem, but that it's fully discrete. In my experience, unless you really know what you're doing, a discrete design will struggle to swing anywhere near its rails. I can only conclude that they wanted the discrete ad copy, whereas a modern IC would've given them way less THD and more headroom before clipping.

[Beobloke]

Originally Posted by Craig Sawyers

The original Thorens Reference was introduced in 1979, so the idea certainly predates any modern trend in Thoren's philosophy.

https://www.audiohifistore.com/product-page/thorens-reference-black

Craig

The Thorens Prestige is allegedly better still...

http://www.thevintageknob.org/thorens-Prestige.html

[Beobloke]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

Hmm, the first one is from a bunch of people unaware that air flow in air bearings exhibits turbulence and creates random noise if you're lucky, periodic oscillation if you're unlucky.

The first one is actually from a bunch of people who were the heart of Micro Seiki back in the 1970s and 1980s and air bearings were regular features of their high end decks back then.

I modestly submit that the general consensus is that they knew what they were doing back then and probably haven't forgotten all of it by now...

Still a shame they've stuck with a rubber band, though!

[Ted Kendall]

Originally Posted by knobtwiddler

the 5534 can give THD that's under -100dBV

You have to be up early in the morning to outflank a 5534 on moving magnet amplification even now, however many decades it is since its introduction - but then much expensive/highend/boutique audio these days is about non-existent issues or doing quite well understood things the hard way and calling it progress...

[Craig Sawyers]

There is a chip that betters the 5534 for phono - the OPA210. Same noise current as the 5534, lower voltage noise, and much lower 1/f noise.

Surface mount only. But also available as a dual - the OPA2210.

Craig

[knobtwiddler]

but then much expensive/highend/boutique audio these days is about non-existent issues or doing quite well understood things the hard way and calling it progress...

This is an interesting point. For example, there are quite a few examples of expensive boutique cables having inferior noise rejection compared to affordable stuff such as Belden or Van Damme that broadcasters use.

The discrete vs monolithic is also a good example. Although there are still one or two areas where discrete might be necessary, such as power amps (high voltage) and headphone amps that need to account for worst-case scenarios (30R headphones at deafening levels, but necessary for good paper spec), can anyone name an example that stands up to scrutiny, where a discrete version (objectively – not hearsay amongst golden ear types) outperforms its monolithic cousin? Many regard the Ampex ATR-100 as the apex of tape machines, yet its path is full of antiquated ICs, let alone modern ones such as the OPA210.

There is a stereotype amongst audiophiles that discrete = good, IC = bad. But where is the evidence to back this up? What happens to those junctions when they are integrated onto a substrate, instead of being able to spread freely across the PCB (with associated parasitics and stability concerns), that makes them less musical?

It’s my opinion that the whole discrete vs IC debate is based on bunkum, in the same realm as audiphool cables. Topology and execution is what gives sound. There is one difference that I will point out, though: many discrete designs obviate Blumlein’s great invention, the LTP. Sans LTP, the ‘singleton’ stage will not cancel the 2nd harmonic, typically having a layer of distortion that isn’t dynamic, and sits on the signal, without changing signature with frequency or level (when below clipping threshold). If there really is something in the discrete vs IC debate, it’s explained by the lack of LTP in my opinion. Because this distortion is so high, I’d argue it to have a homogenising effect, making it even more difficult to distinguish between designs because they all have gross 2nd harmonic.

As Self has written, the average record has been through hundreds of NE5532s (SSL mixers are full of them). What exactly does the audiophool think they’re getting if the final stage is hand-wired, looking like an Aztec maze? (extra distortion and noise, methinks).

[Craig Sawyers]

Dick Burwen designed a tone control system for Mark Levinson back in the early/mid 80's. Burwen's design is on line here https://www.burwenaudio.com/images/CELLO_AUDIO_PALETTE.pdf .

It is chock full of 5532's, with a number of servos to ensure no DC offset before any switches.

Because Burwen had extensive experience in pro audio (and may other designs) and which controls worked best is tailoring sound balance, he used four broad bandpass filters, and a Baxandall-like stage. So nothing at all like a graphic EQ.

Levinson - well actually the late Tom Colangelo - took Burwen's design, but with discrete opamps, buffers, and line drivers to make the Cello Audio Palette. Servos went out the window too in favour of DC blocking capacitors.

I've out of sheer curiosity modelled these discrete gain stages, and the performance is not a patch on the Burwen 5532 design.

But given a 5532 design, and the cachet that did not have in the mid 80's, Levinson thought he could leverage the price by going discrete.

It looks superb though. When they occasionally come up for sale the fetch north of £10k. Lots of stuff online about the Audio Palette, but this is a decent link https://www.bluemoonhouse-sophos.com/cello-audio-palette/

Craig

[Welsh Anorak]

Another audiophool mantra is point-to-point good, PCB bad. I had a high-end valve preamp in with a dry joint - somewhere! All point to point with good quality components, well soldered, but a 'rat's nest', all held in with gallons of hot-melt.

Wiggled a few components and the intermittent problem went away - for the time being.