UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items

Notices

Other Vintage Household Electrical or Electromechanical Items For discussions about other vintage (over 25 years old) electrical and electromechanical household items. See the sticky thread for details.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 20th Jan 2012, 10:19 am   #81
pichacker
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2008
Location: Essex, UK.
Posts: 370
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Or if you watch "Holmes on homes" etc they call them "Wire Nuts"
__________________
6.3v on my heaters is no longer enough to get me going in the morning!!
pichacker is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 11:14 am   #82
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Has anyone here actually conserved a vintage installation? It's usually only the rubber of the wiring which decays, so a well-installed 'period' installation could very easily be 'restored' simply by running the present-day equivalent along the original routes. Plenty of period fittings still exist, most of which are substantial enough to refurbish if worn. If you don't like fuses, you could supply the whole installation via your choice of mechanical breaker.

Most of what I've read here so far relates to 'vintage gear we've thrown away'. How about some tales of old installations we've saved?
Brigham is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 11:47 am   #83
Ed_Dinning
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK.
Posts: 8,172
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Hi Brigham, some of the problems associated with the use of vintage fittings are due to the lack of an earth connetion to the nice brass switch plates etc. There should be no problems with the bakelite style where there is no un-earthed metal that is touchable.

In my daughers house, built in 1970 (by council direct labour!) they were still using screwits, with all the wiring in the loft (PVC) run into a large BICC junction box, so at least the screwits were contained. "Loop-in" ceiling roses had been fitted, but were not correctly used as the switch wires were all connected in the screwit box.


Ed

Ed
Ed_Dinning is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 12:44 pm   #84
broadgage
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

In some cases un earthed vintage lighting equipment can be safely used at a much reduced voltage, such as 24 volts.
24 volt lamps are available in many styles.
If only old unearthed brass light switches are to be used, not the whole installation, then they can be used at 12 or 24 volts to control a relay that switches a modern mains voltage light.
broadgage is online now  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 5:19 pm   #85
hannahs radios
Hexode
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Weymouth, Dorset, UK.
Posts: 422
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

I think a few different countries had the 127/220 volt system; Spain and parts of the USSR spring to mind.

I didn't know that the conversion to 220 only was so easy. It must have been a relief to appliance owners there. I think we should be grateful we've got a conventional 0-240 system, makes life so easy.

Regards hannah

Last edited by Mike Phelan; 21st Jan 2012 at 10:12 am. Reason: Anglicised.
hannahs radios is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 5:56 pm   #86
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by broadgage View Post
In some cases un earthed vintage lighting equipment can be safely used at a much reduced voltage, such as 24 volts.
24 volt lamps are available in many styles.
If only old unearthed brass light switches are to be used, not the whole installation, then they can be used at 12 or 24 volts to control a relay that switches a modern mains voltage light.
The light in my bathroom at home is entirely run at 24 volts via a double-wound centre-earthed transformer, for the simple reason that I wanted to place a brass and porcelain switch inside the room and within reach of the bath.

Other rooms have sound, good quality brass and porcelain switches correctly installed, and have not given any problems whatsoever. Indeed, the use of solid-core wiring instead of stranded has removed the chief cause of shock from these fittings, which was the tendency of stray strands to touch the inside of the cap.

Earthing is no longer the 'vital safety measure' that it once was. Insulation is the way forward, as can be deduced from the large range of brass portable lamp standards readily available from retailers, all with twin and no earth flex. It is easer to improve the insulation of an old fitting than to provide earthing, and although earthing the brass dome of dolly-type switches is possible, my experience has shown that the presence of a connection to the dome is more likely to cause a shock than to prevent it.

All in all, it must be remembered that the electricity of to-day is no different to that of yesterday. The number of times I hear the idea of fittings not being suitable for 'to-day's electricity' is astonishing. Similarly, post-war austerity concepts such as ring-mains seem to have become somehow 'vital for safety', when they are really slightly less safe but cheaper in cable. I never fit them, although if I came across an original Dorman Smith ring main, correctly installed, I would certainly try to retain it, even to the point of looping-in the ring cable without cutting; one of the most distinctive features of the DS terminals.

Another relaxation for economy is the loop-in ceiling rose. There is a live wire to the light even when the switch is off; exactly the danger presented by wrong-pole switches or double-pole fusing. The danger isn't great, so the relaxation is permitted for cheapness. Now the absence of this concession is perceived as a safety issue.

Anyway, I'm off home now, before it turns into a rant!
Brigham is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 6:45 pm   #87
dseymo1
Retired Dormant Member
 
Join Date: Dec 2007
Location: Shropshire, UK.
Posts: 3,051
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Only a few years ago, I purchased the remaining stock of Bakelite switches etc (a few hundred items) from a well-known surplus dealer, and sold them on to a shop specializing in items for restoration of houses, on the clear understanding that they might well not meet modern standards.
Clearly these found a use one way or another!
dseymo1 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 11:36 pm   #88
sentinel040
Hexode
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Near Lichfield, Staffordshire, UK, most of the time and Crystal Palace, S London, some of the time..
Posts: 330
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by emeritus View Post
The "MAGNET" name and electromagnet symbol described were some of GEC's trade marks that were used on much of their stuff before the war. By the time GEC relaunched itself as Marconi and then effectively sunk, the last vestige of this was that the section that organised travel for its employees was called "Magnet Travel".
Probably a tad tangetial but during its glory days GEC also had the Magnet Club for employees , my late father was employed at the Witton factory (on the traction side) in Birmingham for some years and from what I remember its activities ranged from a social club to discounted sales of GEC products to employees. Magnet Travel was probably the last remains of this.

Regards

Ian
sentinel040 is offline  
Old 20th Jan 2012, 11:43 pm   #89
broadgage
Nonode
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: North Somerset, UK.
Posts: 2,129
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by dseymo1 View Post
Only a few years ago, I purchased the remaining stock of Bakelite switches etc (a few hundred items) from a well-known surplus dealer, and sold them on to a shop specializing in items for restoration of houses, on the clear understanding that they might well not meet modern standards.
Clearly these found a use one way or another!
I purchased some NOS old type switches from recently, not so much for the old/vintage/traditional look but because they are marked AC/DC.
Needed some spares for a friends house, and new DC light switches appear to be unavailable.
The supply is normally 230/240 volts AC from the public supply, but has automatic changeover to a 252 volt battery bank in case of failure of the public supply.
broadgage is online now  
Old 21st Jan 2012, 11:31 pm   #90
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

When we moved into our 1938-built house some 30 years ago, it still had its original wiring: one 15A socket in the kitchen and another in the smallest bedroom, probably for an electric fire as it has no fireplace, and one or two 3 pin 2A switched sockets in all the other rooms that were connected to the lighting circuit. When the previous owners had had central heating installed by North Thames Gas, it had evidently been done by graduates of the cowboy school of plumbing and electricity, as a further 15A socket had been run from the existing socket in the kitchen below and installed in the airing cupboard in the bathroom.

All the original cable was rubber, 2 core, and a separate bare wire provided the earthing. The cable, made by Pirelli, was, and still is, in excellent condition: I put it, and the old fittings, in a tea chest in the loft when I was rewiring and it is still there, except for the wire for the 15A circuit. I recycled this for use as a flexible lead for my car battery charger which is mounted on a wall inside the garage with its output connected via a lamp board to the 15A switched socket recycled from the kitchen. That way the mains stays indoors and only a low voltage cable needs to be run to the car [I used to use it for keeping the batteries of our motor caravan topped up when we had one]. Despite being more than 70 years old, it is still supple and only the insulation of the red conductor showed any signs of perishing. Stripping it back revealed a perfectly sound interior, so I connected the exposed ends to flying leads terminated in croc clips and encased the joint in silicone rubber. The rubber stays flexible in frosty weather when a battery charger is likely to be needed, and charging curent can be selected by inserting a 12V lamp of suitable wattage when trickle charging.

Mind you, I have also seen rubber cable of similar age where moving it caused all the insulation to crumble away, leaving a pair of bare wires.

Re double pole fusing, my GEC catalogue of 1893 describes as good installation practice where double pole fusing was not used, to provide the switch in the live and the fuse in the neutral so that the circuit could easily be isolated for testing. At this time, only 50V and 100V supplies were normally used. Possibly double pole fusing was adopted to facilitate testing?
emeritus is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2012, 5:07 pm   #91
pmmunro
Octode
 
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Dundee, UK.
Posts: 1,797
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Brigham,

I would be interested to know why you think that ring circuits are "slightly less safe" , presumably than radial circuits. It can be argued that a ring circuit needs greater care in its installation than a radial one but it should then be no less safe. In many cases a ring circuit will have a lower earth loop impedance than a radial circuit, although both should be designed and tested to ensure that the protective device will disconnect in the specified time.

The origin of the near universal use of the ring circuit is not post-war and was the result of vary careful consideration. It was certainly not a temporary expedient proposed in haste or as a concession to shortage of supplies. It was proposed by the IEE committee charged with undertaking "Post War Building Studies No. 11" by the Ministry of Works, published in 1944. While this committee recognised the economy offered by the ring circuit, as much to address the anticipated shortage of rubber as copper, their main argument for using ring circuits was that it would encourage the installation of comparatively large numbers of sockets thus avoiding the need for adapters and unsafe means of connecting the large number of appliances they hoped and expected would be used in a typical household.

The method of installing low voltage safety supplies advocated by the Wiring Regulations is SELV (Separated extra-low voltage). As the name implies, these are galvanically isolated from all other sources, including earth. The reason is that, during fault conditions, the main earthing terminal of a house will not be at true earth potential but raised above it by the fault current multiplied by the impedance of the earthing conductor back to the point (or points in a PME system) where the earthing conductor is connected to true earth. This is why bonding is used to connect all exposed and extraneous conductive parts of an installation to the main earthing terminal.

PMM
pmmunro is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2012, 9:16 pm   #92
emeritus
Dekatron
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

About 25 years ago I remember the correspondence pages of one of the IEE journals discussing a problem with ring mains that had been wired using the early solid single strand metric ring main cable that had replaced the original multi-strand imperial type. The problem was that after about 10 years, the wires became loose due to creep of the copper of the solid conductors. You could then end up with a pair of radial circuits instead of a ring.

Shortly after reading this I got a call from my cousin who had just moved house, saying that his electrics were behaving strangely (the radio only worked when a standard lamp, plugged into a different socket, was switched on). On investigating I found that the screws of all his 13A sockets were loose. He had evidently had several open circuits in the L and N conductors, resulting in sections being isolated so that appliances that bridged the breaks were connected in series. I didn't investigate the "series" aspect as simply going round and tightening the screws on every socket got rid of the problem.

Perhaps it was an issue with the copper alloy that was then in use as I haven't heard of the problem since. Certainly my own ring main has not exhibited the problem in the more than 30 years since I installed it, nor has my mother's, installed with imperial cable.
emeritus is offline  
Old 22nd Jan 2012, 10:45 pm   #93
Lucien Nunes
Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Parts of Europe used 3 phase, 4 wire AC at 127/220 volts, which required that both poles of 220 volt circuits be fused
Hence, I believe, the historical disregard of polarity in the Schuko system.

Quote:
Has anyone here actually conserved a vintage installation?
This point is one I find very interesting. On paper it is almost impossible to do, because almost every building needs to be insured for one reason or another. It is reasonable for insurers to require an inspection certificate for the electrical system and it is reasonable for a commercial electrician to decline to work on a very old installation that is particularly likely to have hidden faults. So the paper trail inevitably leads to a rewire, this being the fate of many old installations that technically might have survived much longer.

A few historic installations have been conserved in some respects; Cragside has some original wiring although it is de-energised. There are bits and bobs at Salomons, especially around the stage area. At the John Rylands library in Manchester the original installation was only taken out of service in the 90s. To preserve the appearance new wiring was drawn in place of the old and many original fittings modernised, so it the original install exists only skin deep, it would be impractical to turn back the clock there.

At Electrokinetica we are hoping to erect and energise some sizeable demonstration installations using original materials and methods. They will not be 'the electrical installation' but museum exhibits that happen to run around the building. If properly cared for it should be possible to use period wiring for general lighting, for example, with a discreet modern installation as a backup. There is a lot of ground to cover if we are to illustrate the many eras and forms of wiring, maybe 10 separate systems would be needed to paint the whole picture. I'm really looking forward to putting them up.

To that end, I'm slowly gathering fittings. Even more slowly, I'm gathering cable and conduit. It's quite hard to save good long lengths of lead-sheathed because of the difficulty of getting them out intact. Likewise imperial conduit - try finding a bundle's worth of 5/8" all in straight lengths! Imperial pyro is hard because you can't get the seals, although I have made some press tools to take them apart for re-use. Every kind of cable system presents some kind of snag to removal intact, we just have to slog away at it.

Attached pics show one of about 16 assorted fuse boxes and switchfuses at a hall where I used to rig stage lighting quite regularly. It had a wonderful ramshackle installation parts of which dated back to the 20s, that was replaced 10 years ago at the insistence of the insurers. Some sections were becoming distinctly frail by that time but it was fun to use while it lasted - I don't think I will ever have the opportunity of working amongst vintage wiring 'for real' again. Not wanting to drag this thread off-topic as it's not household / domestic, I will put a write-up about the system with pictures on the Electrokinetica website as it captures perfectly the make-do-and-mend electrical practices that are passing into history.

Lucien
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	SF 2.jpg
Views:	400
Size:	78.3 KB
ID:	61583   Click image for larger version

Name:	SF 1.jpg
Views:	372
Size:	64.0 KB
ID:	61584  

Last edited by Lucien Nunes; 22nd Jan 2012 at 10:55 pm. Reason: Attached pics
Lucien Nunes is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 12:46 pm   #94
bobbyball
Octode
 
bobbyball's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Stockport, Greater Manchester
Posts: 1,208
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

I remember the house (bunglaow) we had as a family from the late '70's to the late '90's. It was built in 1958 and although the lighting cuircuit was, as I can remember, on a "ring" it used rubber sheathed "single" wires down to the light switches with junction boxes in the loft. I don't remember there being any earth wires. May Dad (who had originally trained as an electrician in the '40's but moved on to the electronics industry) and I rewired it all by pulling modern T&E down the channels in the walls. The power circuits, again on rings, consisted of strange socket units with one 13A and two 3A sockets, the 3A ones being fused separately by a "pop out" fuse in the socket plate. I can't remember what make they were and I haven't seen them anywhere else. They were mainly black but some were white. I can't remember whether we put new cable in for these - I suspect we didn't as I think they were wired with more modern cable. The fusebox was a "Wylex" one with catridge type fuses, again this was left alone but extra fuseboxes were added for an electric shower and a second immersion heater (there were two cylinders, it was a big house!). We never had any problems.

Robert
bobbyball is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 1:45 pm   #95
Lucien Nunes
Rest in Peace
 
Join Date: Apr 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 2,508
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
strange socket units with one 13A and two 3A sockets, the 3A ones being fused separately by a "pop out" fuse in the socket plate. I can't remember what make they were and I haven't seen them anywhere else
That would be the 'New Day' Fireside socket, 1x 13A and 2x 2A (not 3A) which I think was a neat idea but defeated the interchangeability advantage of sticking to 13A. Attached pic shows one at Amberley.

Lucien
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	Fireside.jpg
Views:	293
Size:	90.4 KB
ID:	61604  
Lucien Nunes is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 7:10 pm   #96
Brigham
Octode
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Co. Durham, UK.
Posts: 1,111
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Not wishing to upset the Devil's advocaat:

The ring-main is 'slightly less safe' than the once-universal radial system because you can draw 65 amps (or whatever it is, I'm working from failling memory here) from a 13A. socket, with no built-in protection; another 'less safe' aspect is that a single open-circuit halves the current capacity of the ring while giving no indication of a fault. The original idea was for the ring cable not to be cut, but for the fittings to be 'looped-in'; special terminals were to be provided to enable it. I don't know if this aspect ever got into 'The Regulations', but it clearly isn't there now.

The whole ring-main phenomenon is definitely post-war. Research was instigated towards the end of hostilities to explore ways of easing the demand for scarce, and therefore expensive, materials in the coming building boom. The ring system certainly doesn't allow a larger number of sockets to be installed. In fact, it used to limit the number in any one room. It may do still. What it did allow was for more sockets to be installed cheaply, but with a slight reduction in safety standards.

My idea of 'conserving' an installation wasn't meant to include the continued use of decayed wiring! If you visit the Radio or Television portions of this Forum you will find that everything is done to make old gear serviceable, within the confines of original design. Individual components are routinely renewed with the nearest modern equivalent, but to the original plan.

The equivalent of this particular thread in vintage TV terms would be to rip out the chassis and put a 17" 'flatscreen' into the old cabinet!
Brigham is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 7:30 pm   #97
McMurdo
Dekatron
 
McMurdo's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
Posts: 5,263
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
you can draw 65 amps (or whatever it is, I'm working from failling memory here) from a 13A. socket
Not for long!
__________________
Kevin
McMurdo is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 8:30 pm   #98
Guest
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Another 'less safe' aspect is that a single open-circuit halves the current capacity of the ring while giving no indication of a fault
Same goes for the earth and on radial circuits too. The worst bit of the ring main is people using 13A fuses on lamps with 3 amp cable.
 
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 8:33 pm   #99
jay_oldstuff
Octode
 
jay_oldstuff's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: Hyde, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 1,074
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

A domestic ring main is fused at 30 amps so as Kevin says you wont pull 65 amps for long unless someone has defeated the fusing or fitted an incorrect breaker. I have found a nail replacing the fuse on a ring main.

Jay
__________________
The light at the end of the tunnel is probably the headlight of an oncoming train
jay_oldstuff is offline  
Old 23rd Jan 2012, 8:47 pm   #100
davidw
Heptode
 
davidw's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2006
Location: Woodbridge, Suffolk, UK.
Posts: 641
Default Re: Perils of the 1950s household.....

Quote:
Originally Posted by russell_w_b View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by evingar View Post
The original junction boxes were of a square metal type, connection was by twisting the wires together onto a ceramic “cap”.
'Scruit' connectors ('screw it'). This was the normal way of connecting lighting wires in the 1930s. VIR cable made off and twisted under a porcelain thimble with a coarse thread inside.
I think these are what you are describing. They have lived for years in a box of "it'll be useful if I never use it" type stuff!
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	S2020004.JPG
Views:	285
Size:	27.6 KB
ID:	61624   Click image for larger version

Name:	S2020005 (2).JPG
Views:	298
Size:	30.5 KB
ID:	61625  
__________________
Dave G1AGK.
My perception is my reality!
davidw is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 5:54 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.