Perils of the 1950s household.....

[murphyv310]

Hi.
I think we need to look at this in perspective! In the last two weeks a young boy of 9 was killed in a house fire in Kilmarnock, this has been attributed to a wall wart power supply bursting into flames, setting light to curtains and causing the fire. Now this is in the H&S age, the 50's were a far from it as could be, I just actually wonder if the people then had anymore common sense than now, from the above posts and the stupid things done I just wonder.
One thing to bear in mind is the quality of some imports we have now and lack of safety in the product, just think of my first sentence!

Things really don't change!

[evingar]

Originally Posted by murphyv310

One thing to bear in mind is the quality of some imports we have now and lack of safety in the product, just think of my first sentence!
!

This is nasty, as the danger is far from obvious - A lot of equipment powered from these things (routers and small form factor PCs etc) are designed to be left powered. I suspect the real problems are when replacement PSUs are sourced from eBay and the like after the original manufacturers supplied part has failed. It really is time a tougher line was taken with such dangerous rubbish !

[Michael Maurice]

A lot of the time, genuine batteries and power supplies are not available from the manufacturers leaving you with no choice but to buy these dubious replacements.

[pmmunro]

Trevor,

I think you may have a very valid point in commenting that people may have had more common sense a generation ago - except of course from the perpetrators of some of the horrors described above.

I would suggest two reasons which might be of influence are greater familiarity with electrical appliances but yet poorer general education in electrical matters.

One obvious indication that imported appliances do not meet relevant safety standards is the use of earth pins with partial sleeving -see http://www.fatallyflawed.org.uk/html/other_dangers.html. bottom of page.

This site was set up by a fellow engineer who has been running a campaign highlighting the dangers of plastic socket covers for 13A BS 1363 sockets since I highlighted how easy it is for these to be used to defeat the much more effective inbuilt shuttering.

Two points which have come out of this campaign are how ignorant many people are of electrical matters and how difficult it is to get anyone to act even once the dangers are made obvious. Several official bodies have gone part way to recognise the dangers of socket covers but none are willing to do much about them because we have been unable to persuade them that a specific body of legislation has been violated. He has also found it extremely difficult to persuade anyone to enforce the legislation which should prevent the sale of dangerous electrical goods.

It is tragic that it takes the death of a child to bring the dangers of lethal imports to the attention of the general public but I will be pleasantly surprised if even this causes some action to be taken to enforce standards and remove this rubbish from the supply chain.

Trading Standards officers should be able to act but are probably limited in their powers if their remit is interpreted to avoid litigation at all costs and also by lack of appropriate expertise and all manner of resources.

It is much easier to enact legislation than to provide the means to make it effective.

PMM.

[Colourstar]

To drag the thread back to the 50s, it does seem that the average chap-about-the-house was encouraged to be a lot more hands-on than today, so a keen home owner would, through articles in mags like Practical Householder, at least have had the chance of getting a decent grounding () in the subject.

Having said that, I've just read another article from 1958 concerning adding additional power points. It suggests that if you don't want to lift the floorboards, any additional wiring 'can be run along the top of the skirting and around any intervening door frames'. Now that always looks a treat!


Steve

[wireful3]

Yes, I've seen that too and sometimes with ordinary flex! Once or twice looking at houses, this appears to have been done "professionally" with proper wiring cable and not by the householder.

[broadgage]

Provided that the correct cable and fittings have been used, is it actually unsafe, or against the wiring regs to clip cable along skirting boards and around door frames ?
It does not look very neat, but is it less safe than concealing under plaster or floor boards ?
It could be argued that twin with earth cable is actualy safer clipped to the surface than concealed, since by being visible it is less liable to damage by screws or nails etc.

[evingar]

Originally Posted by broadgage

Provided that the correct cable and fittings have been used, is it actually unsafe, or against the wiring regs to clip cable along skirting boards and around door frames ?
.

I'm not an authority on the regs, but sometimes in seriously old properties (exposed beams / wattle and daub panels) it's often impossible to channel in cabling.

[mattCRT]

I remember a cowboy electrician came in my nan's house to put in a cord light switch above the bed. Not only did he use phone charger type wire, but the the ordinary light switch wouldn't work unless the cord was in the on position.

I went up the attic to discover that the "electrician" hadn't laid the wire under the insulation, but had trailed the wire over everything stored in the attic. This resulted in a lovely line of melted plastic and scorching going across everything in the attic.

Luckily I soon convinced my nan about cowboys after that.
And yes, like always, the cowboy electrician disappeared off the face of the earth after doing a dodgy job.

From Matt.

[jim_jobe]

Back in 1945 I remember coming home with my dear old mother to find that she'd gone out and left the electric iron plugged in. It was glowing red! Her solution to this was to grab a pair of scissors and cut through the flex!!!
She was still using those scissors until recently and you could still see there was a large chunk missing from the blades.
Jim

[pmmunro]

Broadgage,

The installation method which your describe is known as "clipped direct" and is permitted by the regulations if sheathed cable is used, e.g. 6242YH twin and earth sheathed cable. You do however have to ensure that "external influences" are taken into account - regulation 512.2.1 states "Equipment shall be of a design appropriate to the situation in which it is to be used or its mode of installation shall take account the conditions likely to be encountered". In this context "equipment" includes wiring systems.

Obviously experience and common sense have to be applied. The Wiring Regulations are not prescriptive and make provision for sound methods other than those described in detail to be used provided they conform to the general aims to ensure safety and reliability. It is easiest to use the methods specified because any departure will have to take into account the nature of the cabling system and it working environment, calling for detailed engineering knowledge.


Evingar,

There are several options for very old properties where there is no alternative to surface wiring. One of the best is to use bare MICC (Pyrotenax) cable which is small and unobtrusive. It does however call for considerable skill, an understanding of the correct installation methods and special tools for correct installation - and it's not cheap. It is extremely tough, fireproof and if not seriously abused will practically last forever giving good value for money in the very long term. It is often specified by bodies responsible for historic buildings.

Matt,

Obviously the "installation" you describe fails in almost every aspect. Had your cowboy laid a proper cable under the insulation, I wonder if he would have known how to apply the derating factors which should be applied due to the reduced ability of the cable to dissipate heat?

Many people fail to appreciate that even a correctly rated and protected cable generates heat, for example when coiled on a cable reel; this is why a cable should always be fully unwound from its reel if it is used at anywhere near full capacity.

PMM

[ppppenguin]

I don't have a copy of the 17th edition regs but the 16th has the overall provision: 133-01-01 Good workmanship and proper materials shall be used

While this is to some extent a matter of subjective judgement it could be cited for an installation which although technically compliant with all specific rules was just a mess.

PMM's comment about MICC (pyro) in historic properties useful to remember. If you have the tools and experience (which I don't!) MICC can solve quite a few tricky installation problems. Need to bear in mind that while unsheathed MICC can be safely run at a much higher temperature than any other type of cable (it fails when the copper melts) the surface it is clipped to may not be so heatproof.

[Lucien Nunes]

In the 17th, 134.1.1: "Good workmanship by competent persons or persons under their supervision and proper materials shall be used in the erection of the electrical installation"

This is one of the other advantages of MI cable: Ordinary bodgers can't and don't install it. There's no guarantee that all MI installations are sound but you can be fairly sure that the men on the tools were genuine electricians. Bare copper MI is a noble and timeless artistic medium as well as a current carrier - handling it banishes from the mind all thoughts about skimping on materials or hasty work.

No matter how the manufacturers and regulators strive to improve safety and performance, surely the fools will remain as foolish as ever. In the 50s they would run heaters in the bathroom from lamp adaptors, in 2012 they are busy making plug-plug leads with kitemarked plugs and BASEC approved cable. Whatever we think about relying on RCDs, they are one of the few innovations that protect the foolish as efficiently as they protect the wise.

Lucien

[ppppenguin]

Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes

.... in 2012 they are busy making plug-plug leads with kitemarked plugs and BASEC approved cable. Whatever we think about relying on RCDs, they are one of the few innovations that protect the foolish as efficiently as they protect the wise.

Unless the RCD has been made by the same shysters that are making non-compliant plugs etc. There are certainly MCBs in circulation that are no more effective than a 4" nail, I wonder if there are any RCDs in the same category.

[matthewhouse]

Originally Posted by Lucien Nunes

This is one of the other advantages of MI cable: Ordinary bodgers can't and don't install it. There's no guarantee that all MI installations are sound but you can be fairly sure that the men on the tools were genuine electricians. Bare copper MI is a noble and timeless artistic medium as well as a current carrier - handling it banishes from the mind all thoughts about skimping on materials or hasty work.

How wrong you can be! I found this mess during a test and inspect. I could not work out why there was no earth continuity on a single length of MI. It was wired from a switch by the fuse board, to the other end which had a box with a handful of switches on it, controlling pond water features and lighting.

On investigation the MI had been cut, clips along a section of the run had been removed, allowing the cable to drape diagonally, to give more cable to work with. The cable was poorly terminated in a plastic box, on pulling the box forward to open it there was a bang as the conductors shorted to the sheath. The twin cable at the top fed an outside light which was also poorly installed. The switch was hanging by the cables in the back of another cupboard.

On another note, I could quite happily spend the rest of my days installing MICC, It's by far my favorite cable type and of course surface clipped, can be turned into a work of art. They have stopped teaching the skills to install MI in colleges now as it's too expensive and is not often used any more for various reasons. Several local companies don't touch it as they have never been taught it!

[matthewhouse]

Originally Posted by ppppenguin

There are certainly MCBs in circulation that are no more effective than a 4" nail, I wonder if there are any RCDs in the same category.

Here a cable has been drilled through the centre, the 'bang' was apparently quite something. Even though the drill bit was destroyed the MCB failed to trip. The only reason the fault cleared was the copper burned away from the short. There was almost 3/4" of copper that had been vaporised either side of the hole. The power was still on when I arrived.

There is a certain brand, who happen to make the aforementioned MCBs, also make RCBOs for their boards. I have never known these to trip when tested. The last one remained closed even though the dolly was in the off position, nasty! They have to be condemned on sight.

At least with an old fuse wire you can see whats going on. Were there ever any recalls on fuse wire? There have been several for MCBs!

[Lucien Nunes]

OK, seems I have overlooked a few more ways to fool about with electricity in a modern fashion. Clearly the 'installer' knew the sheath needed to be continuous, just thought a wire tucked behind a plastic lockring might be the way to connect to it. I will admit I don't usually come across that kind of nonsense with MI, it is a good argument in favour of earth tail seals.

It's not really new though. Bonding across junction boxes was always a bugbear with lead sheathed and a known cause of progressive earthing faults in domestic wiring. How many patent 'improved' bonding bars and clamps were there over the years? Then the lead twin and earth, primarily to improve the connections rather than provide a copper conductor as such.

One installation that I worked on recently for a friend was first installed in the 1950s with those new-fangled ring mains. This had been executed in 7/.036, rather unnecessary and not good at fitting into the socket outlet terminals but obviously safe and a nice low loop impedance. The level of protection offered to the householder would have been much more akin to what we expect today, than to the hypothetical 'average 50s house' that the OP envisaged. Over the years this installation had been so badly butchered and so much defective work added, that after a poke around in the loft I decided that all the new parts would have to be rewired, although the old work was OK for now subject to the cable remaining sound.

A point-by-point inspection prior to strip-out revealed that there were more serious faults (code 1 & 2) than points served! The worst of the work was in brown & blue, only a few years old, some of it amateurish, some professionally bodged. Was it, overall, safer or more dangerous than the 'average 1950's house'? Difficult to say, but the danger was much more insidious as it all looked OK on the surface. At least if you find maroon twin draped around the place with Blackley tape stuck all over it, you know not to touch more than one metal thing at a time.

Lucien

[Peter.N.]

Lucien's reference to 'bonding lead sheathing' reminded me of an incident in the '50s. Electricians in those days only seemed to do installations, any fault finding was generally done by the local radio/TV shop, that was were I came in.

A customer had complained that she was getting a shock from her bathroom taps, I checked carefully and found them to be fully earthed, what I did find though was that the sink waste was live to the tune of about 110 volts, it was all lead pipe of course.

I carefully traced the pipe run and could find nowhere it could come in contact with a live circuit, I looked in the cupboard under the stairs where the fuse boxes were located to find a row of lead sheathed cables with a 'very loose' earthing arrangement, several of the sheaths were showing 110v presumably to equal leakage from both conductors, still no evidence of connection to the waste pipe though until I checked the relative positions of the cables and pipe - they were on opposite sides of the same wall which was obviously damp.

Peter

[mrmagnetophon]

I find these stories interesting, in the US most of our electrical systems were done decently by the 50's. Sure there are a few bodges here and there in homes from that time, but don't seem to be as many as what other countries had. Maybe it seems that way because the UK and other countries were updating there codes all the time.

The worst problems we had here were: pennies behind fuses to overload circuits, fused ground, and fuse explosions!!!
(in on case my friend inserted a fuse in a shorted out circuit, the fuse opened up like a flower with a loud BANG, 40 years later he is still mostly deaf from that incident)

Most homes in those days had baseboard outlets, one per room, to distribute the power most ran cords under rugs!!! (Alot of women with heels in those days got shocks)


-Chris

[Lucien Nunes]

It's actually quite hard to compare systems designed to different national standards. For example, whilst I quite admire many of the innovations and features in US connector design, an ordinary modern NEMA 5-15 U-ground plug is still unacceptably dangerous by UK standards and is the laughing stock of many UK electricans. OTOH you have had a licensing scheme in place for a long time to deter (although not prevent) incompetent people from interfering with wiring. This has only recently started to come about in the UK with a rather limited scope.

I think the real differences would be more to do with attitudes to tradesmen and DIYers than the differences in codes or equipment types. Every country thinks they've got the safest wiring in the world so it's down to the number of bodgers per thousand inhabitants.

Lucien