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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 1:26 pm   #61
fidobsa
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Default Re: Award for the worst plug design goes to...

That's a big question! A friend has a hostel / campsite / holiday cottage complex in Bulgaria and I've helped him with one or two jobs. Most of the house wiring cable available there is figure 8 with no earth. You can get a 3 core version but I think that's mainly used for 2 way switching of lights. The sockets do have provision for an earth but it is rarely connected to anything. One item I looked at was an electric shower in a motel type room some distance from the main CU. He complained the water only got lukewarm. Not surprising as there was 80 volts lost between CU and appliance due to the 2.5mm cable used.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 1:35 pm   #62
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Dont forget that Bulgaria was originally part of the Eastern Block so would have been heavily influenced by Russian wiring convention.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 3:07 pm   #63
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I have experience of Russian wiring when i worked with the Bolshoi ballet, we had two large steel floorstanding chandeliers as part of the set. all the wiring was pink in colour all connections twisted and taped and the Russian electrician I was working with had no comprehension of earth.
As far as I am aware all house wiring in Europe is radial with a breaker for each room one for each high consumption appliance.

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Last edited by Michael Maurice; 22nd Aug 2010 at 5:59 pm. Reason: spelling corrections!
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 4:50 pm   #64
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Default Re: Award for the worst plug design goes to...

Domestic use of 3 phase is a lot more prevalent in many European countries than here and can be a selling point when selling a property. Whereas the standard house supply here is 100 amp I think in some countries you would get a lower rated supply if you only had single phase.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 6:17 pm   #65
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On my travels in 1987 I seem to remember seeing 13A wall sockets in use in factories in Penang and also, I think, in Singapore and Hong Kong - or was I dreaming?
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 6:24 pm   #66
Alan Stepney
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No you were not dreaming.
Both use 13 a BS1363, but you can also see some installations with other types of socket.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 7:06 pm   #67
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Originally Posted by Michael Maurice View Post
But then you've got the problem of a 20A fuse protecting an appliance with a 3A or 5A cable that would otherwise be unfused. Lamps come to mind, the only fuse in a lamp is the one in the plug.
For the most part it's not a problem. As I've explained before, there are 2 different sorts of problem that a fuse or breaker has to deal with. A short circuit should blow the fuse more or less instantly. Provided the energy let though (I squared t) by the fuse won't blow up the wire then all is well. 5A rated flex will not blow up in the time a short takes to blow a 20A fuse. Even if it does blow up the wire on rare occasions this can sometimes be regarded as acceptable. The other problem is overcurrent. Many appliances just can't cause this sort of problem. Lamps, heaters etc come to mind. Radios, TVs etc can cause overcurrent faults which is why they need a fuse in the appliance. A fuse in the plug or fusebox just can't give enough protection.

You can always devise conditions that are not properly protected. For example long term small overloads are almost impossible to protect against. You could also have a short at the far end of a very long extension cable where the fault current takes a while to blow the fuse. The cable may well suffer during this.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 9:24 pm   #68
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If being stood upon with a stockinged foot was part of the type approval tests, the UK plug would have been straight down the Swannee.

The next question would then be- which plug is the most comfortable?

In the Leeds / Morley area we used to come across some tiny three (round) pin plugs and sockets back in the seventies. They were similar to the well known 5A type, but I never found out what they were called.
There was so little room inside that they were a ****** to fit, the wires being wound around a threaded post and secured just like in the 5 and 15A plugs.
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 9:32 pm   #69
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Worst plug design? My only real complaint about the humble BS1363 plug is that standing on one that's laying pins side up in your bare feet has got to be one of the most painful experiences that it's possible to endure without actually causing permanent damage to ones self!

Worst plug and socket combination I've ever had to use however wasn't in the UK, but was in the US. How on earth they don't have never-ending fires over there due to arcing contacts I have no idea. More oftehn than not when in I've had to wedge the charger for my mobile phone in place as it would otherwise just fall out of the socket - it's not all that heavy either, though slightly oddly balanced.

First visit there I'd thought this was an isolated incident...Second and third visits however have convinced me otherwise!

How about our oft-seen RF plugs as used to connect TV antennas all over the country? I'll bet I'm not the first person to have got quite a kick off one of them because you're touching the outer contact when trying to plug something into the back of a VCR or similar device with a metal case which should by all rights be inert - but patently obviously isn't!
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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 10:08 pm   #70
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I think part of the bad design of some 13A plugs is the rather brittle thermosetting plastic used They can be chipped and broken easily in a rough enviroment.

Some types have rather dubious fuse holders that don't contact the end caps well and look like they would cause a thermal event () if used with a heater or other high current device.

The other issue with all 13A plugs bought off the shelf is that they are always fitted with a 13A fuse(the maximum rated size). Although people like us would understand the correct fuse rating for an appliance, I wander how many people would not know or could not be bothered with buying the correct rated fuse and end up putting a plug on a table lamp with the 13A fuse still fitted. I bet this is the reason most second hand things I have bought over the years have had 13A fuses in.

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Old 22nd Aug 2010, 10:59 pm   #71
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You're right there Chris, I think the public at large don't know anything less than 13A fuses..

Also, there is that wonderful aroma of fish when the loose fuse holder heats the pin up sufficiently to scorch the plastic..
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Old 23rd Aug 2010, 8:27 am   #72
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Default Re: Award for the worst plug design goes to...

Quote:
Originally Posted by G8VAT Wolfman View Post
I think the public at large don't know anything less than 13A fuses..
On that basis I don't think I have ever bought any 13A fuses. There have always been plenty left over from fitting the correct smaller size to secondhand stuff I've acquired or from new plugs.

Jim
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Old 23rd Aug 2010, 2:49 pm   #73
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Hi

The best 13amp plugs I ever purchased were branded "Ediswan" and used a single piece solid split brass live pin. They would never even get warm with a 3Kw load, and had a solid plastic moulding. This was a good 45 years ago.

As to 13amp plugs, my local Wilkinson Hardware sells them with both 3 and 13 amp fuses. They have a large sticker on the back showing the fuse value.

Regards


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Old 24th Aug 2010, 8:38 pm   #74
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Hi, In response to Michael's question in post 60 (hope it's not too OT), in my five years in France I've done quite a bit of electrics. Basically, ring mains are not recognised, nor are UK style fittings or flat twin & earth with the old colours. You can have up to 8 sockets on a 2.5mm2 cable with a 16amp fuse or 20amp MCB, or up to 5 on a 1.5mm2 cable with a 16amp MCB (fuses not allowed). Fuse holders & MCB's are, or should be, double pole.
Cabling is very often single conductors threaded inside a flexible conduit or "gaine" and live can be any colour you like except blue or green/yellow. Round rigid cable is also used.
Sockets are allowed in bathrooms so long as they are 600mm or more away from sanitary fittings.
Equipotential bonding seems to be a recent developement as is child safety shutters on sockets. The French don't seem to worry too much about live/neutral polarity and plugs & sockets are seldom marked thus (I'll be careful with my DAC90A ).
Because of the radial system (lighting is radial too) there are many more MCBs lurking in the meter cupboard than an equivalent installation in the UK.
That's how I understand it anyway.Hope this is of interest.
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Old 24th Aug 2010, 8:48 pm   #75
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Default Re: Award for the worst plug design goes to...

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You can have up to 8 sockets on a 2.5mm2 cable with a 16amp fuse or 20amp MCB,
That's virtually the same as the UK 20A radial circuit. The main difference is that the UK standard circuits are limited to a particular floor area rather than number of sockets. Without looking this up I think it's 20sq metres for a 20A radial. These area limitiations (100sq metres for a 32A ring) seem like good sense as you are unlikely to connect many heavy current appliances in a small area but you are likely to use lots of radios, lamps and other low current items.
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Old 24th Aug 2010, 10:41 pm   #76
Lucien Nunes
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It's hard to be objecttive on the relative merits of wiring systems and connector standards of different countries. There can be factors in the design of one part (e.g. the plug) that seem inadequate when taken out of context (e.g. the circuit design limits) when they are in fact well suited for the job.

Like Jeffrey I approve in general of Schuko CEE7/4, as a domestic and light commercial connector. I even use it around the house. With its nickel-plated pins and cantilever-sprung socket contacts it is good for over its 16A rating and has other desirable features. Not being polarised is a significant weakness though, and there are some poorly designed versions in widespread use.

The biggest eye-opener for me about mains plug design was a project I worked on for a US client. I had to specify thousands of US NEMA-standard sockets and connectors for all sorts of different mains-voltage applications, that were acceptable for US users, but also met certain European and maritime regulations. 1-phase, 2-phase, 3-phase, with and without neutral, 120V, 208V, 240V, 400V, 15, 20, 50A etc in so many permutations.

Up to that point, I had always dismissed the ubiquitous and antiquated 'Edison' 2-prong NEMA 1 plug as just about the worst mains plug anybody could ever design if they put their mind to it. Having got my own copy of the NEC (US wiring regs) and a few dozen samples of sockets on my bench for assessment and test, I started to gain a bit of respect for the logic of the system, where the Edison plug is really the tip of the iceberg.

I still think the basic version is nasty and overdue for revsion but what we were able to do with coding and segregating the various systems using the NEMA types was excellent, and the better brands of component really did meet the specs and had some nice features not found on European designs. So I'd no longer nominate the US plug in general for this award. Well, maybe the ones where you can touch the prongs when they're live...

Lucien
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Old 25th Aug 2010, 9:53 am   #77
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G8VAT - They were 2 amp plugs, we had them down south as well.
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Old 27th Aug 2010, 8:48 pm   #78
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G8VAT - We had a single 3 pin 2A socket in our hall of residence rooms when I was an undergraduate. We also had underfloor heating which did not work (furred up pipes) and draughty windows. Net result = students wiring electric fires up to the things in the winter...... I was never sure if most heat came from the fires or the wiring/connectors! How that hall (a tower block actually) never burnt down is beyond me.

73 Ian
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 3:58 pm   #79
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G8VAT - We had a single 3 pin 2A socket in our hall of residence rooms when I was an undergraduate.
Aston Uni, by any chance?
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Old 29th Aug 2010, 9:34 pm   #80
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Default Re: Award for the worst plug design goes to...

We had the same 2A sockets in towers at Bath.
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