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Clubs, Groups and Societies For discussions about various clubs, groups and societies relating to our hobbies, such as the BVWS (incl NVCF), BATC, RSGB, APTS, CLPGS, THG, TCC etc. This is NOT an official forum for any of these organisations.

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Old 19th Jun 2018, 6:29 pm   #21
Philips210
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Moll View Post
I do seem to recall, in the days of the larger floppy discs, a claim (possibly apocryphal) that a package labelled "floppy discs - do not fold" arrived folded and annotated with "oh yes they do!" At least the inclusion of "Please" makes it clear that it is not a statement but a request - and a polite one at that.
Hi

That kind of employee is unsuitable for the the job and would have probably been given the sack in the past for that kind of behaviour and disrespect for the customer's property.

Regards
Symon
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 8:50 pm   #22
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

My copy arrived with just the bottom spine corner bent in. I don't mind, its only recyclable paper at the life end anyway.
Better a bit of damage than yet another plastic turtle choker.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 9:18 pm   #23
Dave Moll
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

In any case, surely it's just as likely to be folded in a plastic wrapper anyway.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 9:48 pm   #24
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Further to Mike's and Paul's earlier posts I asked about the auctions, as destroying radios just doesn't ring true. As part of the auction spiel, threats are made, but only in words. People are welcome to "save" as many of the minimum 5 bid lots as they can carry, with pleasure. It's the ones who persistently outbid genuine enthusiasts with the sole intention of selling on that are frowned on. Of course, there's nothing to stop anyone selling on, but not on an industrial scale to the detriment of the hobby.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 7:27 am   #25
slidertogrid
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

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Originally Posted by AC/HL View Post
It's the ones who persistently outbid genuine enthusiasts with the sole intention of selling on that are frowned on. Of course, there's nothing to stop anyone selling on, but not on an industrial scale to the detriment of the hobby.
That's fair enough. But that's not what the statement in The bulletin said is it? as an aside I was outbid on the Meccano Televisor that sold at Wooton Basset only to see it resold on ebay a few weeks later. I wanted it to experiment with not flog on for a profit. but I didn't rant and rave about it...
For example I have quite a few TR82s and a fair few DAC90/90as in my spare room, they have been there for years. I am thinking of selling a few to make some space. I can't remember which set came from where but after what was said in the bulletin if I choose to sell them on ebay myself rather than at a swapmeet ( possibly to then later see them on ebay anyway) if I sell one for more than it owes me that did come from one of the BVWS auctions...
See what I'm saying? The statement was quite comprehensive: "Investigate we will!"
I accept I am being a pedant but I was annoyed when I read that as I have always found the society friendly and I felt it was unfair to have a go at everybody because of a few that bend the rules.
In my experience there will always be some that do as they like anyway and legislation makes little or no difference. ( Chucking them out of the society might, I accept that )
ebay has had a profound effect on swapmeets from all sides, for the larger part anything that is ebay-able is now more expensive or absent from a lot of meetings.
I overheard a discussion at a radio rally a few weeks ago that went something like "how much is that?" " 50. I checked ebay last night and they make that all day long" "yes mate but we're not on ebay are we? We're in a field in Spalding"....
good answer!
Rich.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 8:30 am   #26
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Hi Rich

I haven't had time to even open my bulletin yet but I can be certain that the BVWS is not out to punish the average member.

Unfortunately you cannot have rules only for people you don't like and only see a business opportunity.

If you stand on stage with Mike or work on the bring and buy you will soon get to know who this is aimed at, they know the price of everything and the value of nothing.

And there is the crux of the problem there are also some knowledgeable and serious collectors who like to keep a small core collection who just like to restore more sets than they can keep. They can and do resell within the BVWS but often to do so would mean a big loss often a 5 set is still a fiver in the auction even if you spent a tenner restoring it.

It is a tricky path and those out to make money know how to twist and turn to dodge rules.

I don't keep records as where every set came from and I have had many for more than 40 years I will continue to put sets on the B&B offer here and on Ebay knowing that any transaction were to be investigated it would be done so fairly.

I still remember the awful problems of the late 80's and 90's and that was pre Ebay.

You have to consider the society's aims.

I have been a BVWS member since the mid 80's

In real terms classic sets are still relatively cheap compared to the heady prices of the late 80,s however they have recovered enough to encourage some entrepreneurs. And the big money is denuding sets of their triode for the Audio market, hence why Mike always announces the presence of same to ensure the dealers have to pay the maximum price and encourage real enthusiasts to out bid them.

There have always been dealers in the BVWS and pre Ebay days they helped to bring in new fresh stock. So this is not an anti dealer thing many of whom pre date the BVWS itself.

This just my take on the situation and I am not representing the views of anyone except my own.

Cheers Mike T
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 9:26 am   #27
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

The BVWS Code of Practice says:

Quote:
Our objectives are to encourage the preservation and communication of technical and historical data, and to preserve or restore vintage equipment. Membership of the Society must not be exploited for purely commercial advantage. Similarly, members must take care not to knowingly misrepresent or allow misunderstanding of authenticity, condition or age of any item offered in a transaction. Members must observe the Society's rules relating to the conduct of meetings and auctions, as advertised in connection with specific events. In particular, ad hoc transactions prior to official opening of a meeting, or withdrawal of catalogued auction items in favour of a private deal, are not acceptable. Finally, members must not compromise the good standing of the Society by associating it with any dishonest or unethical activity.
I have highlighted in bold the sentence which I think is most relevant here, and the key word is "purely".

This is the part that the members the society have taken action against have breached continuously for an extended period of time. The person who was expelled had received a previous warning but had not changed his ways at all.

It's similar to how on this forum we get rid of members who are clearly only here to buy and sell, and have no interest in collecting, restoring or discussing the equipment.

Nobody has any problems with collectors buying and selling stuff, that's what swapmeets, auctions, eBay and the sales/wanted section here are all about. We may sometimes make a profit on items - but that is not the aim.

There are some dealers who are members of the BVWS, and are welcome because they are also enthusiasts. Steve Harris at On the Air for example has spent hundreds of hours and thousands of pounds restoring TV outside broadcast vehicles for his own pleasure, and previously ran a small vintage radio history museum.

There is of course a place for dealers, but that place is not in the BVWS or on this forum buying up large amounts of stock.

All this is just my opinion based on being a BVWS committee member, and is not an official BVWS statement.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 9:29 am   #28
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

I received mine yesterday, that's a very interesting pantry transmitter write up.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 10:15 am   #29
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

I joined BVWS in the early 80,s and as Mike T states the prices were certainly beyond me, as a few still are.

The BVWS auctions do allow the aim of the society in letting true collectors get stuff at fair prices.

Back to the bulletin I prefer polythene. Only because mine used to arrived rain damaged, certainly in Scotland where I endured 10 years of rubbish weather.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 11:14 am   #30
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Ok Maybe I took what was said a little to heart unnecessarily . I can understand the frustration caused to the volunteers who arrange and perform the auction to see someone scooping up sets and parts up en masse for obvious resale.
I have sometimes sold sets on when something I really want has replaced it.
For example I wanted a certain model of GEC T.V set, the dual standard mono with the blue front. After a lot of searching for quite some time nothing had turned up, I found a similar set with the same chassis but not the exact model. Within two months of buying that the hallowed "blue front GEC" materialised.
It is quite possible that I will decide to sell the first set. If I do it will hopefully be hard not to make a small profit on it as the set came to me very cheaply. However if I take into account the fuel to fetch it and the time spent on it, it wouldn't be a very commercially viable thing unless it went for a disproportionally high price. There's nothing wrong with covering the costs though and any "profit" helps subsidise what I paid for it's replacement.


Anyway point taken, no offence taken or hopefully caused!
I have enjoyed reading my bulletin long may it continue ! Maybe it's time I submitted an article myself... I could bore you all with the restoration of a GEC dual standard Mono...


Rich.

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Old 20th Jun 2018, 11:34 am   #31
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

What you are doing is exactly what any collector/restorer would do, buying and selling to keep the collection fresh, to get better examples, to get items you really want, and to clear space for them etc. Any profits fund future purchases and parts for restorations.

Dealers scooping up sets and parts just makes the whole hobby more expensive and less fun for the rest of us.

The GEC restoration could be an interesting article. I don't think we have had any dual standard mono sets for a little while, and there's always something new and different with each restoration.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:51 pm   #32
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

I've only just caught up with this thread, I think how Paul and Mike have already explained has helped to give more clarity.

My sincere apologies if the article was received by some as a 'bollocking' or even an insult, it certainly wasn't meant to come across as such.

There was a discussion at the last AGM at Harpenden about this subject, so the intention was to be more of a report of what the committee have recently done, by way of procedure and eventual outcomes, when dealing with a very small number of individuals who were deemed to be 'exploiting the Society for purely commercial advantage'.

I think the word that sums it up well is 'intention'. What is the 'intention' of an individual when they are bidding at one of our auctions? For example, if the intention is "I can stick this in an online auction or on my website tomorrow and make a hefty profit" with all or most of the items that they buy, then that is commerce, or commercial.

And those who do this on a large, regular and visible scale are those who have caused other members to make a complaint.

We do have bonafide traders who attend our events. They operate professionally, ethically and visibly, pay for stalls and offer us their often unusual finds, yes they may buy one or two items rather than 'hoovering up', in return they may enlighten us with a Bulletin article, or even publish their own rag. Folk like this we don't have an issue with, as they give more to the Society and the hobby in general than they take from it.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 1:41 pm   #33
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

I attend auctions because I am a compulsive buyer.
Not all my purchases are for the collection expansion, room is running out.
I am also a compulsive repairer and restorer. That is why I buy.

I sell what I no longer want. The sets will have been at least repaired.
I may make a small amount on the sale but I spend significantly more on repairing. My hobby is repairing and restoring.

Occasionally one of my more unusual purchases may make a substantial profit over the purchase price.
But then I may spend too much buying and repairing and make substantial loss.

A total restoration of a set will cost heavily, I may keep it, I may sell it.
I may make a profit but more likely I will make a loss. i really don't care which.

I can see nothing wrong with this purchase and selling policy.

Sam.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 1:46 pm   #34
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

You are a typical hobbyist Sam, all sounds good to me.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 1:49 pm   #35
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

I gave my Emor Globe to the Dulwitch museum, foolish you may think but great to know it will be enjoyed by many, many people.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 5:01 pm   #36
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

My copy arrived yesterday - lots to read last night! - no damage, no folding.

Ref the saga of the profiteering trader, yes I can see what Greg is alluding to, and in my mind the question of the spirit of the thing comes into play. Buying something at a BVWS auction and selling on eBay a few months later, repeatedly, is not on. But the little electric fire I bought 3 years ago for 15 (no other bids), used during the winter, not only as a roomheater but also as a DC resistive load for a 1kW 200V power supply (which it has been!), might appear on eBay in the future if I find a better model - and if it fetches 25 (with its new mains lead) then I shall still sleep with a clear conscience.

Traders are with us to stay, and if they buy something, saving it from the skip and making its existence known to the right people, then they have done the community (and the landfill site!) a favour.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 8:15 pm   #37
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

The problem of prolific traders hoovering up lots at auction is endemic across several organisations.

I would be very happy in applauding the actions of the committee - there are individuals that frequent auctions, and spoil the feeling for the majority.

I was once rebuked for moaning about traders at a non BVWS event "all private individuals will be able to outbid a trader - the trader has to make a profit"

I actually disagree with that statement - traders usually will have a much wider market to sell to, and as a result be able to justify a much higher hammer price than a simple hobbyist that is just looking at an item for enjoyment.

Certainly I do sell on some of the stuff I purchase, but normally I will at least have a play with it first - as for making a profit, it can happen, but usually the net figure is a heavy minus

Greg, I do not think your report in the mag was at all harsh, and it serves well to show those who may be members for purely commercial reasons that this is a monitored situation - something that other societies and organisations would do well to follow.

Cheers
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Old 21st Jun 2018, 11:17 am   #38
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Correct! Sean.
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Old 22nd Jun 2018, 7:44 am   #39
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

My Bulletin arrived yesterday.
And I was very disappointed to see a torn paper envelope again!
The plastic packaged issues always arrived in good condition, but I cannot remember receiving one paper packed BVWS Bulletin arriving in an intact package!
The paper appears just to thin to survive the handling and the sorting machines.
This time a long side of the envelope was torn open over two thirds of the length.
Please ship in plastic again, or use thicker material!
Thanks.

Jac
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Old 22nd Jun 2018, 7:56 am   #40
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Default Re: BVWS Summer 2018 Bulletin

Finally got a chance to read a couple of the articles last night and another first class bulletin.

Cheers Mike T
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