Gutter aerial - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

richrussell · 7th Sep 2010, 1:58 pm

I thought I'd mention the quick and dirty but surprisingly effective aerial I put up at the weekend. It's been very windy and I lost my long aerial that ran to a tree in the garden.

I got 10m of wire and threaded it through the clips that hold the plastic guttering to the house (bungalows and conservatories have an advantage here). Then fed the end though a bit of rubber pipe trapped in a window frame into the house. The plastic guttering provides plenty of insulation from the house for the horizontal run.

For a 6m horizontal run and 1.5m drop (plus another 2m running across the room to the radio) it makes the difference between almost nothing on most of LW or MW to being able to pull in several stations that internal frame aerials just don't.

Could be useful for those sets that don't have an internal aerial, or for when there's too much interference inside the house, or if you've been put off putting up an outside aerial because you don't have a decent garden.

Guitarist28 · 10th Sep 2010, 5:02 pm

This appears to be a very good idea and I might try this myself.

Regards

Rob

Phil G4SPZ · 10th Sep 2010, 9:17 pm

This is actually quite an old idea, developed by ham radio operators with a need for hidden HF antennas due to planning restrictions or 'difficult' neighbours. Even laying a wire inside the gutter itself is reputed to work, although for transmitting purposes its performance would be somewhat weather-dependent!

The fact is that almost any long, high wire will receive more signal than a set's built-in antenna.

Biggles · 10th Sep 2010, 10:21 pm

I ran a crystal set successfully by connecting it to a cast iron gutter system on my house and using the central heating radiator as an earth. I was expecting performance to fall on a wet day but it remained ok. Completely covert aerial system for no outlay!
Alan

Dave Moll · 11th Sep 2010, 10:22 am

I think I might try one of these myself. I do, however, have one concern - the incoming cable for my telephone (carrying an ADSL signal, of course) runs along the wall just below the gutter brackets. Is there likely to be any adverse interaction between the two?

11th Sep 2010, 12:34 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Moll

I think I might try one of these myself. I do, however, have one concern - the incoming cable for my telephone (carrying an ADSL signal, of course) runs along the wall just below the gutter brackets. Is there likely to be any adverse interaction between the two?

Not much, I wouldn't like to bang 100W up the gutter and expect the internet to work though.

E.K.Cole · 11th Sep 2010, 1:03 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlinmaxwell

...I wouldn't like to bang 100W up the gutter and expect the internet to work though.

Rich in his original post states using his gutter aerial to receive LW and MW stations and I assume Dave is talking about a receiving set up too. Or am I missing something here?

11th Sep 2010, 1:52 pm

It's just that every time I see, make or hear of an aerial I have an urge to load it up and transmit. There is a huge 4 to 30MHz rotatable log periodic at Baldock, I want it!

Dave Moll · 11th Sep 2010, 5:14 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by E.K.Cole

I assume Dave is talking about a receiving set up too.

Yes, I'm strictly a receiver only, so not really expecting the aerial to affect the internet connection. I was more thinking of ADSL introducing radio interference.

Phil G4SPZ · 11th Sep 2010, 9:38 pm

It's a very good question. ADSL signals are allegedly 'notched' to avoid the narrow HF amateur bands, but the wider short-wave and other broadcast bands are not similarly protected. I think it's quite likely that magnetic coupling could cause signals from ADSL to be induced on to an antenna wire, particularly if the two cables run for any distance in parallel and close together.

Having recently experienced quite dreadful interference across most of the SW spectrum from mains-signalling type home broadband distribution devices, it would seem wise to keep broadband and radio as far apart physically as possible.

12th Sep 2010, 9:27 am

If the 'phone line is perfetly balanced (it isn't) there would be no radiation from it, the nearest point of unbalance would be the house. If you do get ASDL interference try winding the incomming 'phone line round a ferrite core or use a few clip on types. If you have the space and 'spare' wire a TV scanning coil core works well. I stress do this to the incomming line before your main socket.

Paul Stenning · 12th Sep 2010, 3:59 pm

OK, I think we've established that running an aerial close to and especially parallel with an ADSL phone line is quite likely to cause problems (for the ADSL if transmitting, for the reception if receiving) so would be best avoided.

Let's discuss other aspects of the gutter aerial suggestion now.

Skywave · 12th Sep 2010, 5:43 pm

Re: the Opening Post.

Just for the sake of completeness, could you please provide the details of the corresponding earth connection that you used with that 'gutter aerial', please?

Thanks.

Al. / Skywave

richrussell · 12th Sep 2010, 8:51 pm

The earth connection for this set is sadly purely a bit of wire wrapped round a radiator pipe in the same room at the moment - far from ideal, but probably better than just relying on the neutral of the mains.

However for a quick aerial setup I just thought I'd post the gutter setup as an idea. There are of course lots of ways people have put up quick aerials in houses (round the picture rails works too).

I posted this really because I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked given so little effort.

peter.sables · 12th Sep 2010, 10:46 pm

Hi

Yes a good old chestnut this one. However, improvements are really needed. 1st try a variable capacitor is series with it. 2nd a good earth is really needed. For this I use a length of thick coax. The trick is at the earthy end connect the outer with the inner, then earth it. Now at the business end leave off the outer. You will then have a screened earth. Much better...

Pete

G4MRU

Phil G4SPZ · 12th Sep 2010, 11:04 pm

Won't you just have an earthed inner?

peter.sables · 13th Sep 2010, 11:35 am

Hi
Yes indeed you would. Now think about it a little. A tuning fork, whats in one leg is also in the other the antenna works just the same way, and the earth is in your house. The antenna is outside. So. The earth will pick up lots of nose from house wiring. For a good or shall we say better earth you need a low resistance to the earth point. To do that you make the earth very short. or very low resistance. Making it short is not really practicable. By using a thick coax you will have a thicker copper center ie lower resistance. That on its own will pick up nose. So screen it with the outer Brade. Lots of copper, low resistance. So you will have a screened earth that picks up less nose. This also helps if your shack is in a upper floor. You will naturally have a long earth. It will radiate, screen it!.

Pete

G4MRU

Skywave · 13th Sep 2010, 12:31 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by richrussell

The earth connection for this set is sadly purely a bit of wire wrapped round a radiator pipe in the same room at the moment - far from ideal, but probably better than just relying on the neutral of the mains.

Agreed: using the mains 'neutral' for an 'aerial earth' cannot be considered to be a wise choice under any circumstances. A radiator pipe is better that no 'earth' at all - provided (of course) that there is no plastic piping that breaks the electrical continuity to 'real ground'.

The main reason I enquired about your earthing arrangement was simply to highlight the fact that with a random length of wire for an aerial, an earth connection is an integral part of that aerial arrangement. Now you and I know this: other less-informed readers here might not be so aware.

Al. / Skywave.

richrussell · 13th Sep 2010, 12:56 pm

Yes, in my youth I did just use the longest bit of wire as high as I could get it outside as an aerial, but it's only when I actually connected an earth that I realised I wasn't getting the full benefit. Even a radiator or cold water pipe (which is earth bonded hopefully) can make a very big difference.

Ideally I'd like to get round to burying a decent metal earth down where the ground is permanently damp. (or try one of the traditional 'tin can full of something that attracts water' designs). But stupidly we laid a paved patio right round the house last year. So I'll need a very good excuse to get permission to pull up a couple of slabs next to the house!

Most of my radios are AC/DC ones, so the earth is capacitively coupled to the chassis and hence mains neutral. And my house being a farmhouse has earth connected to neutral in the kitchen where the consumer unit is. I only have two wires running on the electricity poles across the fields. The water supply pipe to the house is iron (and slightly leaky), so it's actually not bad at all!

Skywave · 13th Sep 2010, 1:45 pm

You know I'm not totally convinced that the traditional call for a large metal plate, (read: large surface area) and buried as deep as possible in the ground, carries as much effectiveness (as regards forming a low-impedance earth connection) - as is popularly alleged, when used with the traditional 'random length of wire' type aerial. * (Ground-plane type aerials, therefore, are specifically excluded from this remark).
It's been my experience that an earth 'wire' formed by a length of copper pipe - say 15mm. diameter - the end of which is pressed firmly down into moist ground for a depth of about 2 feet, seems perfectly adequate as an effective 'signal earth' for up to about 7 MHz - above which an 'earth', as such, doesn't really seem to matter - in terms of improving signal strength / aerial impedance matching, etc.

So, on that basis, you might like to consider simply drilling a half-inch hole through a patio slab and inserting said pipe . . . etc.

You could even disguise said pipe so that it looked like it was an essential part of the house plumbing!

* I am not questioning the importance of the nature of the ground: on the one hand, something like dry rock will be totally useless, and on the other hand, wet, salty soil should be excellent.

Al.

7th Sep 2010, 1:58 pm	#1
richrussell Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Selby, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 979	Gutter aerial I thought I'd mention the quick and dirty but surprisingly effective aerial I put up at the weekend. It's been very windy and I lost my long aerial that ran to a tree in the garden. I got 10m of wire and threaded it through the clips that hold the plastic guttering to the house (bungalows and conservatories have an advantage here). Then fed the end though a bit of rubber pipe trapped in a window frame into the house. The plastic guttering provides plenty of insulation from the house for the horizontal run. For a 6m horizontal run and 1.5m drop (plus another 2m running across the room to the radio) it makes the difference between almost nothing on most of LW or MW to being able to pull in several stations that internal frame aerials just don't. Could be useful for those sets that don't have an internal aerial, or for when there's too much interference inside the house, or if you've been put off putting up an outside aerial because you don't have a decent garden.

10th Sep 2010, 5:02 pm	#2
Guitarist28 Heptode Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Hockley, Essex, UK. Posts: 575	Re: Gutter aerial This appears to be a very good idea and I might try this myself. Regards Rob

10th Sep 2010, 9:17 pm	#3
Phil G4SPZ Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bewdley, Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 4,748	Re: Gutter aerial This is actually quite an old idea, developed by ham radio operators with a need for hidden HF antennas due to planning restrictions or 'difficult' neighbours. Even laying a wire inside the gutter itself is reputed to work, although for transmitting purposes its performance would be somewhat weather-dependent! The fact is that almost any long, high wire will receive more signal than a set's built-in antenna. __________________ Phil Optimist [n]: One who is not in possession of the full facts

10th Sep 2010, 10:21 pm	#4
Biggles Rest in Peace Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Hexham, Northumberland, UK. Posts: 2,234	Re: Gutter aerial I ran a crystal set successfully by connecting it to a cast iron gutter system on my house and using the central heating radiator as an earth. I was expecting performance to fall on a wet day but it remained ok. Completely covert aerial system for no outlay! Alan

11th Sep 2010, 10:22 am	#5
Dave Moll Dekatron Join Date: Feb 2005 Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK Posts: 6,127	Re: Gutter aerial I think I might try one of these myself. I do, however, have one concern - the incoming cable for my telephone (carrying an ADSL signal, of course) runs along the wall just below the gutter brackets. Is there likely to be any adverse interaction between the two? __________________ Mending is better than Ending (cf Brave New World by Aldous Huxley)

11th Sep 2010, 1:52 pm	#8
Guest Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Gutter aerial It's just that every time I see, make or hear of an aerial I have an urge to load it up and transmit. There is a huge 4 to 30MHz rotatable log periodic at Baldock, I want it!

11th Sep 2010, 9:38 pm	#10
Phil G4SPZ Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bewdley, Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 4,748	Re: Gutter aerial It's a very good question. ADSL signals are allegedly 'notched' to avoid the narrow HF amateur bands, but the wider short-wave and other broadcast bands are not similarly protected. I think it's quite likely that magnetic coupling could cause signals from ADSL to be induced on to an antenna wire, particularly if the two cables run for any distance in parallel and close together. Having recently experienced quite dreadful interference across most of the SW spectrum from mains-signalling type home broadband distribution devices, it would seem wise to keep broadband and radio as far apart physically as possible. __________________ Phil Optimist [n]: One who is not in possession of the full facts

12th Sep 2010, 9:27 am	#11
Guest Guest Posts: n/a	Re: Gutter aerial If the 'phone line is perfetly balanced (it isn't) there would be no radiation from it, the nearest point of unbalance would be the house. If you do get ASDL interference try winding the incomming 'phone line round a ferrite core or use a few clip on types. If you have the space and 'spare' wire a TV scanning coil core works well. I stress do this to the incomming line before your main socket.

12th Sep 2010, 3:59 pm	#12
Paul Stenning Administrator Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Cardiff Posts: 9,071	Re: Gutter aerial OK, I think we've established that running an aerial close to and especially parallel with an ADSL phone line is quite likely to cause problems (for the ADSL if transmitting, for the reception if receiving) so would be best avoided. Let's discuss other aspects of the gutter aerial suggestion now. __________________ Paul Stenning Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster

12th Sep 2010, 5:43 pm	#13
Skywave Rest in Peace Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chard, South Somerset, UK. Posts: 7,457	Re: Gutter aerial Re: the Opening Post. Just for the sake of completeness, could you please provide the details of the corresponding earth connection that you used with that 'gutter aerial', please? Thanks. Al. / Skywave

12th Sep 2010, 8:51 pm	#14
richrussell Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Selby, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 979	Re: Gutter aerial The earth connection for this set is sadly purely a bit of wire wrapped round a radiator pipe in the same room at the moment - far from ideal, but probably better than just relying on the neutral of the mains. However for a quick aerial setup I just thought I'd post the gutter setup as an idea. There are of course lots of ways people have put up quick aerials in houses (round the picture rails works too). I posted this really because I was pleasantly surprised at how well it worked given so little effort.

12th Sep 2010, 10:46 pm	#15
peter.sables Rest in Peace Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Doncaster, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 385	Re: Gutter aerial Hi Yes a good old chestnut this one. However, improvements are really needed. 1st try a variable capacitor is series with it. 2nd a good earth is really needed. For this I use a length of thick coax. The trick is at the earthy end connect the outer with the inner, then earth it. Now at the business end leave off the outer. You will then have a screened earth. Much better... Pete G4MRU

12th Sep 2010, 11:04 pm	#16
Phil G4SPZ Dekatron Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Bewdley, Worcestershire, UK. Posts: 4,748	Re: Gutter aerial Won't you just have an earthed inner? __________________ Phil Optimist [n]: One who is not in possession of the full facts

13th Sep 2010, 11:35 am	#17
peter.sables Rest in Peace Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Doncaster, South Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 385	Re: Gutter aerial Hi Yes indeed you would. Now think about it a little. A tuning fork, whats in one leg is also in the other the antenna works just the same way, and the earth is in your house. The antenna is outside. So. The earth will pick up lots of nose from house wiring. For a good or shall we say better earth you need a low resistance to the earth point. To do that you make the earth very short. or very low resistance. Making it short is not really practicable. By using a thick coax you will have a thicker copper center ie lower resistance. That on its own will pick up nose. So screen it with the outer Brade. Lots of copper, low resistance. So you will have a screened earth that picks up less nose. This also helps if your shack is in a upper floor. You will naturally have a long earth. It will radiate, screen it!. Pete G4MRU

13th Sep 2010, 12:56 pm	#19
richrussell Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Selby, North Yorkshire, UK. Posts: 979	Re: Gutter aerial Yes, in my youth I did just use the longest bit of wire as high as I could get it outside as an aerial, but it's only when I actually connected an earth that I realised I wasn't getting the full benefit. Even a radiator or cold water pipe (which is earth bonded hopefully) can make a very big difference. Ideally I'd like to get round to burying a decent metal earth down where the ground is permanently damp. (or try one of the traditional 'tin can full of something that attracts water' designs). But stupidly we laid a paved patio right round the house last year. So I'll need a very good excuse to get permission to pull up a couple of slabs next to the house! Most of my radios are AC/DC ones, so the earth is capacitively coupled to the chassis and hence mains neutral. And my house being a farmhouse has earth connected to neutral in the kitchen where the consumer unit is. I only have two wires running on the electricity poles across the fields. The water supply pipe to the house is iron (and slightly leaky), so it's actually not bad at all!

13th Sep 2010, 1:45 pm	#20
Skywave Rest in Peace Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Chard, South Somerset, UK. Posts: 7,457	Re: Gutter aerial You know I'm not totally convinced that the traditional call for a large metal plate, (read: large surface area) and buried as deep as possible in the ground, carries as much effectiveness (as regards forming a low-impedance earth connection) - as is popularly alleged, when used with the traditional 'random length of wire' type aerial. * (Ground-plane type aerials, therefore, are specifically excluded from this remark). It's been my experience that an earth 'wire' formed by a length of copper pipe - say 15mm. diameter - the end of which is pressed firmly down into moist ground for a depth of about 2 feet, seems perfectly adequate as an effective 'signal earth' for up to about 7 MHz - above which an 'earth', as such, doesn't really seem to matter - in terms of improving signal strength / aerial impedance matching, etc. So, on that basis, you might like to consider simply drilling a half-inch hole through a patio slab and inserting said pipe . . . etc. You could even disguise said pipe so that it looked like it was an essential part of the house plumbing! * I am not questioning the importance of the nature of the ground: on the one hand, something like dry rock will be totally useless, and on the other hand, wet, salty soil should be excellent. Al.