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Old 13th Jun 2018, 11:14 pm   #61
Skywave
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Arrow Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

It may be a bit late to mention this, but I'd like to try to help.
In my experience, measuring low resistance of an inductance with a DMM can give confusing - and incorrect - results. Best to use an analogue meter, such as an AVO 8.

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Old 14th Jun 2018, 8:46 am   #62
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Yes, get that AVO working - it's just the job for this, and you will master using it in no time with help from the people here.
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Old 14th Jun 2018, 10:13 am   #63
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

I do agree about getting that AVO up and running, regardless of whether it gets used for determining the connections of that fan. I use a model 7 (I've had one for about 40 years, although I've got several) all the time for taking various 'low ohms' readings. I don't generally bother with the 9 volt battery side and just have a 1.5 volt cell fitted in the manner I've already described in a previous post.

I hope I haven't put the OP off with my talk of 'serious risk of electric shock', but I think we have to stress this point when directing someone to make connections to the mains, or when dealing with any other high voltage source for that matter. However, I get the impression from the OP's posts that he's not the sort of person do do anything daft in this regard, but still worth mentioning just in case.

If the OP does as suggested with a mains light bulb in series (lamp limiter), he'd have the thing up and running in the time it takes to put the kettle on and mash a cup of tea!
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 10:43 pm   #64
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

I have now taken the two batteries out of my Avometer and they are of the 4.5 V Eveready Ultra Plus variety. I don't know whether these are available in ordinary shops, or whether any 4.5 V batteries of the same size/shape will suffice.
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 10:58 pm   #65
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

4.5v batteries still available as a niche product possibly (but not in the high street)

Your alternative option might be to convert it to a PP3, which will give you the 9 volts required.
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Old 15th Jun 2018, 11:13 pm   #66
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

To clarify, the 1.5v cell in the meter (which these days has to be converted to a D cell as the old cell is obsolete) will make the LOW and MEDIUM resistance range on the meter work. (which gives you 50 or 500 ohms at centre scale)

To get the HIGH resistance range working (5,000 ohms centre scale) you need 9 volts (hence the pair of 4.5v batteries which are wired in series.)

With a combination of help from here and looking at tutorials i would say this is something you are highly likely to be able to pick up.

I agree with what people have said about your AVO. It is well worth dusting off and using. If i was nearer i would put it thro' it's paces for you. Certain elements of an old AVO are not dissimilar to the workings of a clock or old telephone exchange- a fusion of electrical and mechanical functions and principles.

I should say it is comparatively easy to kill an avometer if you are new to electrical testing and analogue meters- best you have the booklet that goes with it (should be a scan easily available)

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Old 16th Jun 2018, 1:04 am   #67
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Quote:
It is well worth dusting off and using. If i was nearer i would put it thro' it's paces for you.
I'll research my Avometer on the internet.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 7:14 am   #68
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

I have the working instructions on a pdf i can email you. It's also on richardsradios website.

Dave
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 7:17 pm   #69
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Does anyone else ever sometimes wish you could just reach through the screen of your laptop, grab the offending device and have it right there in front of you, whereupon it would be obvious what needed doing with it?
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 7:41 pm   #70
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 11:01 pm   #71
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Possibly, but it would also be nice if we could keep the pH above 6.
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Old 16th Jun 2018, 11:33 pm   #72
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

I came across the following whilst perusing various diagrams which isn't particularly encouraging. I think those of the opinion that this particular wiring job requires a personal hands on approach may be correct.

I have motor with five outgoing wires: white, brown, red, blue and black.
• white - has no resistance with any of the others.
• brown-blue = 136ΩΩ
• brown-black = 366
• brown-red = 108
• red-blue = 25
• red-black = 260
• blue-black = 236

Your description is confusing and the motor is complicated. There is no standard for colour coding motor wires. The motor may be defective. There is little chance of figuring out the correct connections based on resistance readings. Someone with a lot of experience and more test equipment might be able to figure it out, but it is probably a waste of time to attempt to figure it out using an internet forum like this. – Charles CowieFeb 15 '17 at 15:07

• Stainless answer is very correct. There is no assumptions as the details are technically and theoretically correct. With the second upload of drawing with the starting and main winding, the details are very correct and there is nothing that will prevent the motor from running. The rest job is for OSM to wire correctly – Kamah Dec 27 '17 at 7:30

• If you do not know which wires are connected to the start capacitor, you are lost unless the MFG has a diagram for you. – Sparky256 Dec 29 '17 at 5:53

• If you know where the motor came from there may be a chance to find how it is intended to be used. Tracing existing wiring or circuitry would be a great help. – KalleMPDec 30 '17 at 12:36
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Old 17th Jun 2018, 2:55 pm   #73
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Peter, i haven't enough experience with motors to assess the fan, but if you decide you will be using your Avo 7 we could assess any bugs with it next time you're passing.

Couple of things- you will have seen from the manual that Voltage and Current measurements can be taken without the batteries installed; the meter takes it's power from the circuit under test. (Measuring Resistance requires the internal power.)

I notice the yellow digital meter you used is basically the same as one of mine- and it may or may not be significant to note that the first two ranges to start randomly failing on mine were the 200 and 2000 ohm ranges.

Dave
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 10:45 pm   #74
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

According to my battery tester, there is a modicum of power left in both the 4.5 volt batteries that are in my Avometer model 7 Mk. 2, although they have been in the meter for 20 yrs. that I know of. However, I haven't been able to find any life in the meter, ie. no movement on the dial indicator etc. It could be that its just because I haven't a clue how to test whether its working or not.

Whether it takes us any further, I have now been able to attain consistent resistance readings between the wires without fluctuation by setting my digital meter to 2000 ohms, as opposed to 200 ohms.

The readings are as follows:-


Green- Blue 32.9
Green-Black 24.4
Green to grey 12.3
Green -Brown no resistance
Brown-Black no resistance,
Brown- Grey, no resistance
Brown-Blue, no resistance.
Grey-Black 12.3
Grey-Blue 45
Black-Blue 55

I am enclosing primitive diagram of modern switch that was in the fan which was obviously wired up at some stage. There is a lug for a spade connector which I presume had the mains positive wire attached to it and 4 poles which had wires soldered to them. Three of these wires were obviously control speed wires from the winding, the other one may have come from the winding, or it may have been a neutral wire from the mains.
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Old 19th Jun 2018, 11:21 pm   #75
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

I'm fairly sure this particular fan motor doesn't have an inbuilt capacitor and I'm positive it doesn't have any brushes. The motors with inbuilt capacitors appear to have bulges, a bit like the hoods of the old 3 litre MGC spots cars with no power steering.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 12:52 am   #76
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Arrow Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Lucifer:
I realise that you do have a limited knowledge of things electrical, so a few initial remarks may help.

1. You refer to 'positive' mains. That is incorrect. Should be 'Live' mains. The 'live' mains wire in the U.K. is now coloured brown. The 'other' connection to the mains supply is called 'neutral'. In the U.K., this wire is coloured blue. (Vintage electrical equipment had red for 'live' and black for 'neutral'. That does not apply here.) The safety earth wire from the mains source is a wire coloured green or green and yellow. That wire should be connected to any metalwork that a user of that equipment may come into contact with. Some modern equipment is so constructed that there is no such metal to touch. This is called 'double insulated' equipment and does not need the green / yellow earth wire connection. I suspect that your fan comes into this category, but if there is any metal that anyone might touch, make sure that that metal is connected to the aforesaid green/yellow wire from the mains plug.

2. Your resistance readings are commensurate with the attached wiring diagram. The box labelled 'switch' will be a four-position switch: one position will be 'off'. The other three positions will be for the three speeds.

3. What now follows is my strong suspicion as to how this fan + switch should be wired. It is how I would wire it (and the switch) to see if things work as expected. If you choose to connect the fan and switch as per my drawing and apply a.c. mains to that arrangement, you do so at your own risk.

4. Via the switch, the brown wire will connect to the black wire for slowest speed; the brown wire will connect to the grey wire for intermediate speed; the brown wire will connect to the green wire for fastest speed. The brown wire will not connect to any wire for the 'off' position. The switch must be of the type whereby the brown wire can only connect to ONE of the three wires: black or grey or green.

5. In my drawing, the N refers to mains 'neutral'; the L to mains 'live'. I have not shown any 'safety earth' connection for reasons of clarity - but refer to my comment about that in my para. 1

6. In my drawing, I have used the standard drawing symbol to represent a resistance. In practice, these 'resistances' will be inductances: the resistances are simply the resistance of those inductances. Generally speaking, in a.c. motors, the higher the inductance, the greater the resistance. However, a perfect inductance will have zero resistance! (I realise that may sound very confusing, but an explanation for all that can wait for another thread elsewhere - if you wish to pursue the matter - it's not relevant to this thread).

And finally, the best of luck with it!

Al.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 5:08 pm   #77
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Thank you for taking the time to relay a methodical and articulate hypothesis of the probable correct wiring of my fan. As I'm sure you have appreciated, the wiring colouring of the 5 core chord I have annexed to the wires emanating from the winding bear no correlation whatsoever to each other. The latter being 4 x black and one brown/white striped, as opposed to grey, brown, blue, black and green// white striped.

I think this fan would have originally been earthed due to its cast iron and aluminium structure. There is also a column built into the base with a screw tapped hole to accommodate an earth wire.

I enclose a primitive diagram of the type I can understand to demonstrate how I have interpreted your diagram.(probably wrongly) Your diagram to me doesn't appear to take into account the brown/white striped wire, now brown emanating from the winding. Again, probably wrongly, I can only see 4 wires emanating from the winding, green, grey, black and blue. The only ref. to a brown/live wire being the one going directly from the mains to the switch. Should this seemingly spare wire also be attached to the switch, or should it be annexed to the mains live wire.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 6:04 pm   #78
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Arrow Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Lucifer View Post
Thank you for taking the time to relay a methodical and articulate hypothesis of the probable correct wiring of my fan. As I'm sure you have appreciated, the wiring colouring of the 5 core chord I have annexed to the wires emanating from the winding bear no correlation whatsoever to each other. The latter being 4 x black and one brown/white striped, as opposed to grey, brown, blue, black and green// white striped.
Your diagram to me doesn't appear to take into account the brown/white striped wire, now brown emanating from the winding.
Yes, I understand that you extended the existing wires from the fan and in so doing changed the colours of the wires to those coming from the fan. However, my analysis was based on your reported resistance readings with those new colours. Simply extending the existing wires - and thus changing the colours of those wires - will have no relevance to the wiring of the fan + switch.

Here's a simple example of how changing the colours of wires is irrelevant. Suppose I have a cable with the following voltages at its ends:
+ 12 v. d..c. = Red
- 12 v. d.c. = Blue
0 v. d.c. = Black.
If I extend those wires such that the Red becomes Orange; the Blue becomes Violet and the Black becomes Green, then I will get:
+ 12 v. d.c. = Orange
- 12 v. d.c. = Violet
0 v. d.c. = Green.
and the colours of the 'original' wires are thus irrelevant.

To me that is obvious: I hope it is to you. I do not wish to insult your intelligence: if indeed it appears that I have, that was not intentional and I apologise accordingly. Perhaps I have mis-understood what you have written immediately above, but I have read it through several times. But I am seriously trying to help.

Al.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 6:09 pm   #79
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Default Re: Wiring a desk electric fan.

In the original photo the wires looked like they came out of the coil side by side from under a band of lacing cord.
I would have numbered them from left to right.
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Old 20th Jun 2018, 6:34 pm   #80
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skywave View Post

Yes, I understand that you extended the existing wires from the fan and in so doing changed the colours of the wires to those coming from the fan. However, my analysis was based on your reported resistance readings with those new colours. Simply extending the existing wires - and thus changing the colours of those wires - will have no relevance to the wiring of the fan + switch.

Here's a simple example of how changing the colours of wires is irrelevant. Suppose I have a cable with the following voltages at its ends:
+ 12 v. d..c. = Red
- 12 v. d.c. = Blue
0 v. d.c. = Black.
If I extend those wires such that the Red becomes Orange; the Blue becomes Violet and the Black becomes Green, then I will get:
+ 12 v. d.c. = Orange
- 12 v. d.c. = Violet
0 v. d.c. = Green.
and the colours of the 'original' wires are thus irrelevant.

To me that is obvious: I hope it is to you. I do not wish to insult your intelligence: if indeed it appears that I have, that was not intentional and I apologise accordingly. Perhaps I have mis-understood what you have written immediately above, but I have read it through several times. But I am seriously trying to help.

Al.
I fully understand that your wiring diagram was based entirely on the readings I supplied, as opposed to the colouring of the wires, that's why I stated As I'm sure you have appreciated,

The contents that are causing me a modicum of confusion are 1/ that you appear to be of the opinion that this is a modern fan 2/ That it probably doesn't fall into the category of being earthed when the structure is of cast iron and aluminium 3/ Your diagram appears to only cater for four wires emanating from the motor windings when there are five. I use the word appear in the context that perhaps in my limited ability of reading electrical diagrams, I have misread the aforementioned.

There's no need for any form of apologies, although I may not possess the brains of David Lloyd George, or for that matter, the mathematical genius of Albert Einstein, I do appreciate you are trying to be helpful
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