Pye Black Box Restoration - Page 3 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Edward Huggins · 12th Dec 2017, 5:28 pm

I don't know enough about the cartridge you've bought, but there should be more than adequate power on the amp so I suspect it may have a lower than expected output. Feed a radio into it and roughly the cartridge should be at the same volume. You need a cartridge that will output c.250mV.
The pick up set down postion can be adjusted in or out by the screw at the bottom of the tone arlm when lifted up.
The stylus must be at 90 degrees to the surface of the record when looking from the front and -15 degrees from vertical when looking from the side. You may need to adjust the cantilever with a pair of tweezers.

OldTechFan96 · 17th Dec 2017, 7:13 pm

I fed into the BBH amp some music from my phone and it did seem a bit quiet when turned all the way up. The output of the new cart produced a higher volume than my phone.

I also tried feeding the BBH amp via my Sony receiver. The volume of the receiver was set a quarter of the way up. The BBH amp had bags of volume when fed this way.

I installed everything temporally back in to the cabinet and the volume did improve. I'm still not sure if the output is correct.

I will look to experiment with a suitable preamp. Has anybody tried a Velleman Universal Mono Pre-Amplifier Kit?

Ten resistors have drifted outside of their tolerance range and will be replaced. R17 drifted down from 10KΩ to 3KΩ!

I downloaded a copy of the BSR UA8 turntable servce manual and started with the adjustments. I spent a while adjusting the stylus set down with a 10" record. Unfortunately it is a bit inconsistent. It will be in the correct place on one try and on the next it will set itself down on the record grooves. The tonearm hight was adjusted with the aid of ten singles. It was way off and needed to be lowered considerably. The tracking weight will be sorted another time.

leslie5555 · 17th Dec 2017, 10:59 pm

With regard to the deck working inconsistently, looking through your posts all you say is that you've "cleaned the turntable" have you in fact removed all the old sticky grease and applied fresh grease in the appropriate places.
In my experience these decks only need very light greasing and work very well with just a smear of grease in the correct places.
It is however very important to remove all the old grease.
Hope that helps
Les.

Edward Huggins · 17th Dec 2017, 11:23 pm

WRT Post #42, the Pye BBH amplifier does not need a pre-amp at all if you are using the correct cartridge. Adding a pre-amp to this will create uneccessary additional complications esp. hum, noise and overload - and not the least, unjustified cost.

Nuvistor · 17th Dec 2017, 11:48 pm

The Velleman amp in post 42 will not be suitable, its output impeadance is too low at 1k to drive the grid circuit of the valve amplifier.

wd40addict · 18th Dec 2017, 8:31 am

There is no problem driving a valve amplifier from a low impedance source! Obviously a coupling capacitor should be used if there's any chance of a DC offset on the signal.

However, I agree with Edward and there should be no need for a pre-amp in this case. I use a BSR SC11M in my Black Box and volume is sufficient for all normal requirements.

OldTechFan96 · 18th Dec 2017, 5:37 pm

Thanks for the replies. After doing some more testing I've decided that the volume is more than ample.

The turntable has been re-greased but it could do with a more thoroughlooking at.

OldTechFan96 · 15th Jan 2018, 4:44 pm

Hello all!

I've been replacing out of spec resistors and now consider the amp finished.

The cabinet is in good condition with the odd mark here and there. I'm using Wilko scratch cover for medium wood applied to a soft cloth to hide any blemishes. Deep scratches have been treated individually with a cotton swab.

In a previous post I mentioned that the record set down was inconsistent and I think that I have worked out why. I noticed that when a record drops down the turntable bounced around a lot, causing the tonearm to move about. This probably caused the set down to be off just enough to miss the record. The original dampening is long gone so I'll replace it.

I've also noticed that when a record finishes the tonearm returns to the beginning of the record instead of returning to rest. I looked underneath the platter and noticed a fair bit of wear on the metal underneath. This problem is mentioned in the UA8 service chart as problem XII. Could the worn area be build up somehow?

leslie5555 · 15th Jan 2018, 9:21 pm

The wear on that lug won't have any affect on where the tone arm finishes up after lift off a record,
The fact that the tone arm does eject at the end of a record means that the worn out part is not affecting the operation at the end of the record.
The problem you have is most likely gummed up grease in the mechanism .
Also if you have the overarm in the upright position the tone arm will return to the start of the record.

OldTechFan96 · 16th Jan 2018, 10:19 pm

I've noticed that the stop bracket assembly was bent out of shape so I bent it back into its correct position. The turntable has been lubricated.

When the overarm drops after knocking down a record there is a 1cm gap between the top of the control column and the bottom of the overarm. The overarm does not seem to be dropping enough to pull the stop lever assembly. When I manually push the overarm all the way down the tonearm returns at the end of a record as it should.

The service manual does mention that the stop pawl spring and the adjusting link can be slackened or loosened to fix a changer that does not return at the end of a record.

Should the overarm drop all the way down after it drops a record?

leslie5555 · 17th Jan 2018, 12:09 am

The overarm should drop all the way down when there are no records left on the stacking spindle

Boater Sam · 17th Jan 2018, 7:38 am

If the overarm is not sitting on the turret top, the changer thinks that there is still a record to be played. Is the lever under the overarm spindle end free to move through its full range?

OldTechFan96 · 25th Jan 2018, 10:00 pm

With a bit of careful adjustment and lubrication the tonearm returns after a record finishes.

Everything is coming together nicely. Next I will focus on improving the appearance of the cabinet and measuring the tracking weight. I don't have a pressure gauge. I have noticed that the ones available online only measure up to 5g.

Edward Huggins · 26th Jan 2018, 10:33 am

That's because they are designed to be used with Hi Fi turntables that do not track above 5 grams. The 1950s/60s autochangers as used on your BB will have tracked at between 5 8 grams.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 26th Jan 2018, 12:25 pm

The old Garrard stylus balances, I forget the model number, could check stylus pressures in a range from 0-10grams. They came with a 5 gram(me) check weight. I have two of them, though one is missing it's 5gm weight. If Old Tech Fan96 is in need of such a device, and would like to PM me his address details, I could send him the one that's missing it's 5g weight(I'd check the calibration first, of course.

TonyDuell · 26th Jan 2018, 2:28 pm

You can get a 5g weight (I guess strictly a 5g mass) for 20p -- litterally. The mass of a new 20p coin is 5g. I am quite sure that would be accurate enough for setting a stylus balance.

Ed_Dinning · 27th Jan 2018, 9:03 am

Hi I have an old relay gauge that will read to 20gm.

Ed

OldTechFan96 · 27th Jan 2018, 6:35 pm

Thanks for the offer of measuring gear! I'll send 'LIVEWIRE?' a PM later.

OldTechFan96 · 2nd Feb 2018, 10:00 pm

The Garrard stylus pressure gauge that 'LIVEWIRE?' sent me arrived yesterday.

I calibrated it using a new 20p coin, as suggested by Tony Duell.

As a test I measured the stylus pressure of my BSR MP60. It correctly measured it as 2g.

The stylus pressure of the BSR UA8 measured just over 7.5g. The pressure range of the stylus I'm using is between 4g-6g so I'll try and get it down to about 5g.

I'm not too sure if the pressure setting spring is original. I'll see what I can to do to lower the pressure.

'LIVEWIRE?' · 2nd Feb 2018, 11:46 pm

Glad that Garrard Stylus Pressure Gauge is proving useful. ('They don't make 'em like that anymore!') As to the UA8 changer, they probably weren't designed to track at much below 7G. Many years ago I had an EAR 'Autobat' player which was fitted with a later(c.1963) BSR deck. The cartridge was a 'ful-fi' TC8 S, and, somewhere I still have a letter from the then BSR Agents (N.Miers & Co.), which stated that the stylus pressure should be set to 8g. All the same, if there is sufficient range on the spring fitted to bring the pressure down to 5g or so, it will be kinder to your records to do so, provided the arm will track correctly at the lower setting.

12th Dec 2017, 5:28 pm	#41
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,327	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration I don't know enough about the cartridge you've bought, but there should be more than adequate power on the amp so I suspect it may have a lower than expected output. Feed a radio into it and roughly the cartridge should be at the same volume. You need a cartridge that will output c.250mV. The pick up set down postion can be adjusted in or out by the screw at the bottom of the tone arlm when lifted up. The stylus must be at 90 degrees to the surface of the record when looking from the front and -15 degrees from vertical when looking from the side. You may need to adjust the cantilever with a pair of tweezers. __________________ Edward.

17th Dec 2017, 10:59 pm	#43
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration With regard to the deck working inconsistently, looking through your posts all you say is that you've "cleaned the turntable" have you in fact removed all the old sticky grease and applied fresh grease in the appropriate places. In my experience these decks only need very light greasing and work very well with just a smear of grease in the correct places. It is however very important to remove all the old grease. Hope that helps Les.

17th Dec 2017, 11:23 pm	#44
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,327	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration WRT Post #42, the Pye BBH amplifier does not need a pre-amp at all if you are using the correct cartridge. Adding a pre-amp to this will create uneccessary additional complications esp. hum, noise and overload - and not the least, unjustified cost. __________________ Edward.

17th Dec 2017, 11:48 pm	#45
Nuvistor Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2013 Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 9,433	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration The Velleman amp in post 42 will not be suitable, its output impeadance is too low at 1k to drive the grid circuit of the valve amplifier. __________________ Frank

18th Dec 2017, 8:31 am	#46
wd40addict Octode Join Date: May 2009 Location: Stevenage, Herts. UK. Posts: 1,518	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration There is no problem driving a valve amplifier from a low impedance source! Obviously a coupling capacitor should be used if there's any chance of a DC offset on the signal. However, I agree with Edward and there should be no need for a pre-amp in this case. I use a BSR SC11M in my Black Box and volume is sufficient for all normal requirements. Last edited by wd40addict; 18th Dec 2017 at 8:43 am.

17th Dec 2017, 7:13 pm	#42
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration I fed into the BBH amp some music from my phone and it did seem a bit quiet when turned all the way up. The output of the new cart produced a higher volume than my phone. I also tried feeding the BBH amp via my Sony receiver. The volume of the receiver was set a quarter of the way up. The BBH amp had bags of volume when fed this way. I installed everything temporally back in to the cabinet and the volume did improve. I'm still not sure if the output is correct. I will look to experiment with a suitable preamp. Has anybody tried a Velleman Universal Mono Pre-Amplifier Kit? Ten resistors have drifted outside of their tolerance range and will be replaced. R17 drifted down from 10KΩ to 3KΩ! I downloaded a copy of the BSR UA8 turntable servce manual and started with the adjustments. I spent a while adjusting the stylus set down with a 10" record. Unfortunately it is a bit inconsistent. It will be in the correct place on one try and on the next it will set itself down on the record grooves. The tonearm hight was adjusted with the aid of ten singles. It was way off and needed to be lowered considerably. The tracking weight will be sorted another time.

18th Dec 2017, 5:37 pm	#47
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration Thanks for the replies. After doing some more testing I've decided that the volume is more than ample. The turntable has been re-greased but it could do with a more thoroughlooking at.

15th Jan 2018, 4:44 pm	#48
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration Hello all! I've been replacing out of spec resistors and now consider the amp finished. The cabinet is in good condition with the odd mark here and there. I'm using Wilko scratch cover for medium wood applied to a soft cloth to hide any blemishes. Deep scratches have been treated individually with a cotton swab. In a previous post I mentioned that the record set down was inconsistent and I think that I have worked out why. I noticed that when a record drops down the turntable bounced around a lot, causing the tonearm to move about. This probably caused the set down to be off just enough to miss the record. The original dampening is long gone so I'll replace it. I've also noticed that when a record finishes the tonearm returns to the beginning of the record instead of returning to rest. I looked underneath the platter and noticed a fair bit of wear on the metal underneath. This problem is mentioned in the UA8 service chart as problem XII. Could the worn area be build up somehow? Attached Thumbnails

15th Jan 2018, 9:21 pm	#49
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration The wear on that lug won't have any affect on where the tone arm finishes up after lift off a record, The fact that the tone arm does eject at the end of a record means that the worn out part is not affecting the operation at the end of the record. The problem you have is most likely gummed up grease in the mechanism . Also if you have the overarm in the upright position the tone arm will return to the start of the record. Last edited by leslie5555; 15th Jan 2018 at 9:25 pm. Reason: After thought

16th Jan 2018, 10:19 pm	#50
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration I've noticed that the stop bracket assembly was bent out of shape so I bent it back into its correct position. The turntable has been lubricated. When the overarm drops after knocking down a record there is a 1cm gap between the top of the control column and the bottom of the overarm. The overarm does not seem to be dropping enough to pull the stop lever assembly. When I manually push the overarm all the way down the tonearm returns at the end of a record as it should. The service manual does mention that the stop pawl spring and the adjusting link can be slackened or loosened to fix a changer that does not return at the end of a record. Should the overarm drop all the way down after it drops a record?

17th Jan 2018, 12:09 am	#51
leslie5555 Heptode Join Date: May 2015 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 692	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration The overarm should drop all the way down when there are no records left on the stacking spindle

17th Jan 2018, 7:38 am	#52
Boater Sam Banned Join Date: Dec 2013 Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines. Posts: 3,897	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration If the overarm is not sitting on the turret top, the changer thinks that there is still a record to be played. Is the lever under the overarm spindle end free to move through its full range?

25th Jan 2018, 10:00 pm	#53
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration With a bit of careful adjustment and lubrication the tonearm returns after a record finishes. Everything is coming together nicely. Next I will focus on improving the appearance of the cabinet and measuring the tracking weight. I don't have a pressure gauge. I have noticed that the ones available online only measure up to 5g.

26th Jan 2018, 10:33 am	#54
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,327	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration That's because they are designed to be used with Hi Fi turntables that do not track above 5 grams. The 1950s/60s autochangers as used on your BB will have tracked at between 5 8 grams. __________________ Edward.

26th Jan 2018, 12:25 pm	#55
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration The old Garrard stylus balances, I forget the model number, could check stylus pressures in a range from 0-10grams. They came with a 5 gram(me) check weight. I have two of them, though one is missing it's 5gm weight. If Old Tech Fan96 is in need of such a device, and would like to PM me his address details, I could send him the one that's missing it's 5g weight(I'd check the calibration first, of course.

26th Jan 2018, 2:28 pm	#56
TonyDuell Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Biggin Hill, London, UK. Posts: 5,208	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration You can get a 5g weight (I guess strictly a 5g mass) for 20p -- litterally. The mass of a new 20p coin is 5g. I am quite sure that would be accurate enough for setting a stylus balance.

27th Jan 2018, 9:03 am	#57
Ed_Dinning Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Newcastle upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 8,194	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration Hi I have an old relay gauge that will read to 20gm. Ed

27th Jan 2018, 6:35 pm	#58
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration Thanks for the offer of measuring gear! I'll send 'LIVEWIRE?' a PM later.

2nd Feb 2018, 10:00 pm	#59
OldTechFan96 Octode Join Date: Jul 2017 Location: Newcastle Upon Tyne, Tyne & Wear, UK. Posts: 1,178	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration The Garrard stylus pressure gauge that 'LIVEWIRE?' sent me arrived yesterday. I calibrated it using a new 20p coin, as suggested by Tony Duell. As a test I measured the stylus pressure of my BSR MP60. It correctly measured it as 2g. The stylus pressure of the BSR UA8 measured just over 7.5g. The pressure range of the stylus I'm using is between 4g-6g so I'll try and get it down to about 5g. I'm not too sure if the pressure setting spring is original. I'll see what I can to do to lower the pressure. Attached Thumbnails

2nd Feb 2018, 11:46 pm	#60
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Pye Black Box Restoration Glad that Garrard Stylus Pressure Gauge is proving useful. ('They don't make 'em like that anymore!') As to the UA8 changer, they probably weren't designed to track at much below 7G. Many years ago I had an EAR 'Autobat' player which was fitted with a later(c.1963) BSR deck. The cartridge was a 'ful-fi' TC8 S, and, somewhere I still have a letter from the then BSR Agents (N.Miers & Co.), which stated that the stylus pressure should be set to 8g. All the same, if there is sufficient range on the spring fitted to bring the pressure down to 5g or so, it will be kinder to your records to do so, provided the arm will track correctly at the lower setting.