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Old 17th Aug 2017, 2:19 am   #1
sandbar40
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Default Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

I have just acquired this deck via an on line trading site with the view to using it as a quality source to play 78's.
It turned out to be complete except for the 78 rpm idler! (groan).
The TT uses separate 33 and 78 idlers.
Back in September 2014 'Pentode' discussed this deck with photos if you are interested.
Obviously i'm interested in getting the missing part, so if anyone can help let's know.

Tim.
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Old 18th Aug 2017, 9:32 pm   #2
qualityten
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Tim, if you can post a pic of the deck and (ideally) of the idler you're looking for, that would help jog memories and responses.
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Old 19th Aug 2017, 2:09 am   #3
sandbar40
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Connoisseur two speed TT
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Old 20th Aug 2017, 11:05 am   #4
qualityten
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

If nobody comes forward with the idler itself, there are companies that rebuild idlers; they may be able to build one to your specifications. e.g. http://www.terrysrubberrollers.com/ (no connection).
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 3:00 am   #5
sandbar40
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Thanks, the trouble is I don't know what the dimensions should be.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:18 am   #6
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

I assume that one idler drives the inner rim of the turntable and the other the outer rim of the turntable?

The diameter of an idler makes no difference to the speed of the turntable. Could it be that the idlers are identical, but one is mounted the other way up?

Are you seeking the bracket and "axle" as well as the actual idler wheel?
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 9:43 pm   #7
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Is this what you are looking for? If so, it will need new rubber, or at least a very good clean!
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:26 pm   #8
electrogram
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

So the motor runs in the opposite direction for 33rpm than 78rpm ?
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:32 pm   #9
sandbar40
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Graham, yes, the 78 idler drives the inner rim, and the motor is switched to run in the other direction.
I tried using the 33 idler against the inner rim, but turntable speed was too low

Hexode, yes! that's what i'm after.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:36 pm   #10
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Or could it be simply that the left idler drives the larger outer rim (internally) and the inner roller drives the inner (smaller) rim, if so then would it not follow that the platter will turn in a clockwise direction?

I have one of these two speed Connoisseurs as well, I think mine needs the motor recoiled as it is very black and fried looking but I may be wrong.

It's another of my to do list items.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 10:49 pm   #11
barretter
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Tim, it's yours for the cost of postage (just the idler and bracket and screw). I have no memory of how I acquired it. I also have a couple of the cartridges and the arm but I'm sure you can do better. I also have a copy of the January 1953 Gramophone magazine which has an advert for the turntable. Coincidentally Brighouse is only about 10 miles from where I live.
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 11:16 pm   #12
sandbar40
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Pentode, the speed change switch also moves the idler bracket to select drive to inner or outer rim.

Hexode, thanks for your generous offer, let's know post cost.
I also have the connoisseur arm with LP and 78 heads, the coils in which read ok but i couldn't get a peep out of them connected to a magnetic cartridge input. Do they need a step up?
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Old 21st Aug 2017, 11:50 pm   #13
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

I'm Barretter on this website - hexode is just a reflection of the number of my posts, just as you are a triode, number-of-posts-wise. Anyway I will find out the cost of postage. I don't recall ever getting a peep out of the Connoisseur cartridges either. I am not an expert on Connoisseur equipment. As I said I can't recall how I came to possess it - probably some radio jumble sale. I probably never got it to work which is why it is in pieces.
Looking back though the Gramophone archives I see it is first mentioned in the September 1949 issue which is before any LPs were issued in the UK. Arnold Sugden was a very forward-looking engineer.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:21 am   #14
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Thanks barretter, re the cartridges, dismantling one reveals a steel? tube with stylus at one end and the other in the middle of a coil- 400 ohms- connected to the output.
The stylus end is centered between to pole pieces connected to magnets in the cartridge body. So, a 'moving iron ' type?
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 2:42 am   #15
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Thinking about it, (the pickup cartridge) it has more in common with' Decca London' construction, with fixed coil and magnets.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:07 pm   #16
Stevie342000
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Hello

Yes you do need a step up transformer, not sure if I have one or not, you do need to increase the gain and match the impedance.

I have a couple of the cartridges and from what I know this is pure conjecture.

Arthur Sugden was allowed access to the Decca Studios or at least to their works or some other part of Decca. He was banned by Haddy and again it is unclear but I think it has do with him making a copy of the Decca cartridge.

The ban went on for a year or two or so I was told, I think my 2 speed has the transformer mounted on the underside would need to go take a look.

The fact that you need a transformer might be the reason he did not get sued for breach of Patent by Decca.

Arthur Sugden was indeed forward thinking, from what I know in the BSRA (British Sound Recording Association - UK AES) which was formed in 1936 and recommenced in 1946/47 after WW2. His first turntable was a single speed 78 rpm, the 2 speed came out about 1950 and the 3 speed 1952, which is the year 45 rpm was introduces, his cutting lathes follow the same pattern of introduction.

He was a very forward thinking man indeed, he made everything from ribbon microphones, pre and power amplifiers, omni-directional speakers he introduced the first belt drive turntable in the BD-1 and sold up due to ill health in the early 1970s upon which the company was asset stripped and went into liquidation in the early 1980s. His 3 speed turntable was introduced before the Garrard 301 and they both were sold into America.

He is somewhat forgotten unlike HJ Leak, Peter Walker and Gilbert Briggs, he was in their league and like them he was self taught, sad really, as he was the first person to demonstrate stereo disc cutting in 1956 at the same event as Walker introduced the ESL-57, his part in that is forgotten as well. As it is Blumlein who is remembered and not him.

Again Sugden may have had issues with Decca at this point as his cutting method was 0 and 90 degrees not 45/45 and Decca was working with Telefunken on the same principle of working, it is unclear how many times or when he was banned from Decca Research or the studios. Teldec did introduce the vertical/lateral cutting head, he was a minnow in a big pond when it came to the major record labels.

He was due to introduce his records to the public but it all got shelved when 45/45 was adopted and ill health took over. There may be a good reason for that under international agreement the Blumlein patent had expired, his however was filed in 1957.

There was found to be issues with lateral/Hill & Dale cutting in the vertical element which he worked around and perfected, however you can electrically shift the phase by 45 degrees which is what Decca did. I suspect Sugden may have had the same concept in order to get around the vertical cutting issue, nobody knows as his prototype lathe may or may not still exist, his stereo cutter heads are more likely to exist at least 6 were made and all his cutting lathe equipment was made to order and to professionals only.

So who knows Decca or EMI might have them in their archive where it remains buried. I've seen the stereo discs come up on auctions sites but only once if memory serves, there will not be many of those that exist it all depends on how many were originally pressed.

Anyhow I digress you may find that the magnets have lost their strength as well but they can be recharged easily enough. I would imagine the cartridges sound very similar to a Decca and if they are lower output they may be even better too.
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 12:16 pm   #17
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

That makes Sugden pretty quick off the mark - Edward Lewis went to the US in 1949 and within a fortnight of arriving was cabling Decca HQ for LP product - work started on this late summer, I think, and the first Decca LPs came out early in 1950. The man had his ear to the ground!
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Old 22nd Aug 2017, 9:51 pm   #18
barretter
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

I've found a 1958 advert for the Connoisseur arm and cartridges which I have. I don't know if they're different from what came with the 1949 turntable but they seem to have quite a healthy output.
Tim, I've packed up the idler and will find out postal costs tomorrow, perhaps you could send me your address via a personal message.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 12:17 am   #19
Stevie342000
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

There will still be an impedance mismatch between the 400R and the 47K input but you should get something I figure, even if it is distorted due to overload or impedance mismatch.

As far as I can remember the cartridge remained the same from 1949 until it was replaced with stereo ceramic. I do not think he made a stereo version of the moving iron but again my memory may be wrong.

There is not much information on Connoisseur on line so a good old google search should come up with an answer. Trawling old magazines is another way to find out more.

Try American Broadcast history and check out the UK magazines from that era, I do not think he is in Wireless World but worth a look.

Oh yes nearly forgot there may be a bad connection somewhere or one of the wires has perished in the cable from the head to the phono output, that output should be high enough to measure with a meter and definitely with a VTVM, it should be possible.
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Old 23rd Aug 2017, 5:32 am   #20
sandbar40
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Default Re: Connoisseur two speed turntable 1950?

Thanks Stevie, besides the 'red' and 'green' heads -( confusing as Sugden coded LP as 'green' whereas other later brands used 'green' for 78)- there was another head labelled 'microgroove'. Unfortunately the coil on this is open.I will have another play with these items shortly, but in the meantime i've modified an old arm, which had a moving coil between the poles of a horseshoe magnet, to take a mono GE vr mk 2.
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