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Television Standards Converters, Modulators etc Standards converters, modulators anything else for providing signals to vintage televisions.

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Old 15th Dec 2011, 5:29 pm   #21
German Dalek
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Hi to everyone,

I warm up an older discussion :
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=64658
According the discussion about Daryl`s Aurora-set I have to ask, does it work
with interpolation?
If not, it is not the solution to me.
O.K. it is a fast solution with maybe a reasonable price.
If it works with interpolation, what about in case of service?
Anybody heard about broken sets?
David Loosers set gives me (maybe) the "Chance" to repair it.
But an Aurora seems not to be a service-friendly set?
Am I wrong?
I have all stuff of David Loosers line converter at home, have of course
no idea, if I could buy all parts today again.
Anyway, it will be a good project to build it.
BUT BEFORE I START, I HAVE TO KNOW HOW I CAN SWITCH IT TO 441 LINES
FOR THE FRENCH TVS.
Somebody offered me help in this forum, but never heard about him again.
I am waiting for a 819 line solution, too.
But I also think about it, to change the schematics of about 15-18 different 819 line
french TV sets ( + 3 one-channel belgiums) to make them running on 625 lines.
?
However, when I count the number of readers in this TV discussion forum I should
like to look positive in the future of english spoken countries!

Best regards,

The German Dalek
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Old 15th Dec 2011, 5:39 pm   #22
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

The Aurora uses 3 line interpolation. According to BBC reserach done in the 1960s this gives very good results.

The Auroras are very reliable. Over 500 of the SCRF have been shipped, only 2 have failed. I believe both were "dead on arrival". One was due a to badly soldered surface mount chip, the other was an intermittent fault in the F type VHF output connector. The one with the faulty soldering was replaced by Darryl at no cost, the one with the conenctor problem was repaired by the owner.

There have been a couple of other Auroras with suspected faults. One was proven OK, the problem was with the owner's TV. The other I'm not sure about but since I have heard nothing about it for a few years I assume it's OK.

The Aurora SCRF is available for most output standards including 441 and 819. It can be reprogrammed to a different standard using a PC and a special adaptor. I do this for Darryl in Europe. I have updated the firmware on several Auroras and changed the standard of one.

If you want a switchable converter the Aurora World converter is available. It's expensive. If you want 405, 441 and 819 it would be cheaper to buy 3 separate SCRF, one for each standard.

It might be worth reading the articles and reviews on my website. I have written extensively about standards conversion and reviewed all the converters that have been commercially available.

Last edited by ppppenguin; 15th Dec 2011 at 5:47 pm.
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Old 15th Dec 2011, 5:46 pm   #23
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Thanks PPPPenguin,

I have to leave now the company, will be back tomorrow.
In this case I have to think about a 441 line converter.
Are they available without RF output, only video to connect with an own
RF-converter?
I ask this, because of two different 819 channels which I should use.

Have a nice evening,

best regards from Germany,

The German Dalek
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Old 15th Dec 2011, 5:50 pm   #24
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

All the Auroras have video and RF outputs. Except the 30/32 line versions. The RF channels are chosen to suit the output standard, for example the 405 line version has channels B1 to B13.

You can download the manual for the Aurora SCRF from Darryl's website. It gives a lot of useful technical information.
http://www.tech-retro.com/Aurora_Design/Home.html
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 10:03 am   #25
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Hi.
The Aurora's I have, have been very good. My first one was in 2005 an original multistandard one, 100% reliable, of the other 6 SCRF auroras one arrived dead, there were no obvious faults and the regulated output line was correct, mysteriously on return to Darryl it worked!
The only other problem I have is on one of my NTSC SCRF a slight audio crackle appears after 3 or 4 hours as it warms up, so far though I have not done anything about it and will most likely leave it until the problem gets worse.
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 1:18 pm   #26
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Thanks for the input, guys.
Just the chance to use it with my own RF-modulator will reduce a
possible problem.
The pictures of the interior showed me, that there is no chance (closeby )
to repair it.
Maybe only the RF-modulator has parts which can be changed easiely?!
Point of question is, what happend if the set went south after 2, 3 or
4 years?
How`s about if the Aurora set (metal case or connectors) is connected with a TV chassis leading mains?
What I have read in this forum about Aurora seems to be 99% positive.
Anybody here with 819-line-experience?
I will check out what it will cost to buy a 441er and a 819er.

Happy week-end,

The German Dalek
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 1:58 pm   #27
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

I understand the possible problems with live chassis TVs. If the aerial isolator is faulty the mains could be applied to the Aurora. Also to any humans

I recommend that:

1: The chassis of every live chassis TV is connecetd to mains neutral.
2: An additional isolator is used to protect the Aurora. This can be as simple as a pair of Y rated capacitors in a small plastic box.

The Aurora has been used successfully on 819. I'm sure that our French members, Jerome Halphen and Wiwior will agree. I think that David Boynes also has an 819 Aurora. There are 2 different 819 line versions of the Aurora, one for the French standard (System E), the other for the Belgian (System F). I think these differ only in the modulator programming.

It is possible to repair an Aurora but you will need facilities for working on surface mount PCBs. I am confident that Darryl will support and repair them for several years.
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 2:25 pm   #28
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Hi Jeffrey,

Thanks for your fast answer.
So I have to make some changes, as far one lead is connected to the chassis.
VDE-caps with ~ 220 - 3300 pF were used in the 60s.
Is that O.K.?
All belgium 819 line sets are working with minest 625 line belgium standard, too.
So there is no need for the belgium 819 line RF converter (smaller bandwi.)
But I have 3 belgium one channel sets, which were designed to receive french television,
because in 1950-1952 Belgium had no television.
It started late 1953 with 2 standards.

Best regards,

The German Dalek
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 2:51 pm   #29
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by German Dalek View Post
So I have to make some changes, as far one lead is connected to the chassis.
Sorry, I don't understand what you are trying to say.

Quote:
Originally Posted by German Dalek View Post
VDE-caps with ~ 220 - 3300 pF were used in the 60s.
Is that O.K.?
I'm sure the old VDE spec caps are OK but they are now very old and may be unreliable. The modern spec is Y or Y2. Value is not critical.

Quote:
Originally Posted by German Dalek View Post
All belgium 819 line sets are working with minest 625 line belgium standard, too.
So there is no need for the belgium 819 line RF converter (smaller bandwi.)
I am not familiar with the differences between 819 in France and Belgium. I know that France used the full bandwisth while Belgium did not. According to the Aurora manual the RF channels were different.
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Old 16th Dec 2011, 3:30 pm   #30
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Hi Dalek and everyone,
The Belgian and French 819 standards are slightly different. The Belgian standard uses equalization/serration pulses for the frame sync while the French standard uses one broad pulse. Also the Belgian field blanking area is 29 lines long while the French is 41 lines. Of course the RF standards are different with Belgium using System F and France using System E.

There is a line level output from the converters so you can disable the internal modulator and drive your own modulator if desired.

In the 8 years I've been making these converters, there have only been two verified failures, and these were initial problems. One was an unsoldered pin on the 100 pin fpga, and the other was a recently discovered problem with an F connector that had in intermittent internal short from the manufacturer. Both of these got out since they were intermittent faults and they worked during final test. To date, no converter has been verified to fail in operation, some being on nearly continuously for years.

Jeff's suggestion for making sure a live chassis set is connected to the mains neutral, and also adding Y capacitors in the aeriel connections is critical. Anything or anybody contacting a live chassis is never a good thing.

Darryl
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Old 19th Dec 2011, 12:43 pm   #31
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Thanks for the additonal info.
I make a short trip to the history of television in Belgium, but under normal
circumstances I could write a book because of all the information I have collected.
So long story short:
Belgium has 3 languages, French, Dutch and German.
The germans are a minority, but between the other is still war.
I by my own made the experience, that you don`t get an answer for the way, if you ask in the wrong language.
So according to the language the population and engenieers were hostaged
in their view following France or the Netherlands/Germany and the related politics.
I have old mags which are showing a real hate in the TV-standard discussion.
Because Belgium couldn`t deside for a standard the only view early sets were
designed for french television.
Precisia offered a kit-set, which was available in different standards, also for the 405 line standard.
Building a TV which workes on 4, later 5 standards was very expensive and complecated.
In late 1953 the politics decide for 2 own standards just to save the own market.
Sets between 1949 and mid-1953 were designed to deal with the french standard (819 line - transmitter Rijsel close to Lille/France).
These were one-channel sets!
Most earlier sets 1953-1956 have only a dual standard option for both
Belgium standards.
Stella build a 3 standard set and some bigger companies decide for 4 standard sets.
In 1976 they switched off the latest transmitters for their own standards and went over now completly to CCIR/PAL.
This was the end for AM-sound/pos. picture modulation on the continent.

best regards,

The German Dalek
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Old 19th Dec 2011, 2:02 pm   #32
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by German Dalek View Post
Belgium has 3 languages, French, Dutch and German.
The germans are a minority, but between the other is still war ...

... Sets between 1949 and mid-1953 were designed to deal with the french standard (819 line - transmitter Rijsel close to Lille/France).
I won't pursue the issue of animosity between the Dutch speaking Flemish and the French speaking Walloons but I will make one observation ...

Rijsel is simply the Flemish name for the French town of Lille and, until a few years ago, all road signs in Flanders that lead towards the French border always said Rijsel and never Lille!

If it hadn't been for Walloon dominance a hundred years ago insisting on the use of French names for Flemish towns (which still existed in my school atlas during the 50s with names like Ypres and Coutrai), the Flemish town of Ieper (Ypres) would never have got the name of Wipers in WW1!
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Old 22nd Dec 2011, 3:41 pm   #33
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Confusion may arise over the concept of 'mains neutral' regarding live-chassis techniques if the situation in Düsseldorf is similar to that in Lille (Rijsel), where 'mains neutral' is half-way between the two pins of the plug, giving half the voltage above, and half below, with respect to earth.
This makes the idea of connecting one side of a 'live-chassis' set to mains neutral either ludicrous or hazardous, depending on the depth of your electrical knowledge.
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Old 22nd Dec 2011, 4:26 pm   #34
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

That's a good point, especially for those of us used to UK practice. The safety rule is always assume the chassis is live until proven otherwise. Also always assume the aerial isolator is faulty unless proven otherwise.

It won't affect 405 (and 441, 819) line sets because they predate this practice but the situation with neither pole of the mains at earth potential is similar to those sets which have a bridge recifier across the mains. This leaves the chassis at half mains potential.
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Old 23rd Dec 2011, 4:33 pm   #35
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post


The Aurora has been used successfully on 819. I'm sure that our French members, Jerome Halphen and Wiwior will agree. I think that David Boynes also has an 819 Aurora. There are 2 different 819 line versions of the Aurora, one for the French standard (System E), the other for the Belgian (System F). I think these differ only in the modulator programming.

Like David Boynes I use the mulltistandard converter fed into a Philips modulator that covers all the French/Belgium frequencies etc.
What I will say is that up converting from 625 to 819 tends to make the picture a little lacking in sharpness, programming the RT Russell with a still image is far superior and really sharp.
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Old 23rd Dec 2011, 5:21 pm   #36
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphyv310 View Post
Like David Boynes I use the mulltistandard converter fed into a Philips modulator .....
Presumably this is the original multistandard Aurora that didn't have a modulator. The current World Converter has a modulator that works on all standards.

Inevitably a 625>819 up conversion will lose something compared to an 819 original. Perhaps what we need is a converter with HD input
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Old 23rd Dec 2011, 7:36 pm   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
Inevitably a 625>819 up conversion will lose something compared to an 819 original. Perhaps what we need is a converter with HD input
We really need to start a thread on this subject. Adding an HD input to a standards converter makes sense both from gaining a higher quality input and from the fact that SD analog signals are going away.

HDMI is the ideal input format since it carries all the signals you need and is already digital. The problem is the HDCP DRM. Because of this, almost all BluRay disks and most broadcast content will not play to a device that does not support HDCP. An HDCP license is very expensive, and I doubt one could be obtained for this purpose since it explicitly restricts devices that have high quality recordable outputs. This leaves SDI, an expensive broadcast standard not found in consumer products, and component, which after the "Analog Sunset" in 2012 will no longer work, or be found on HD equipment. I just haven't figured out how to get an HD signal into a converter!

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Old 24th Dec 2011, 5:03 pm   #38
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Hi Dears Gentlemen,

What about HD consumer camera ?

I have a JVC camera in real full HD FORMAT 1080 by 1920.

It output the signal in HDMI and in Analog with the green, red and blue BNC.

If we take the signal coming from the green, we have also the synchro pulse.

But, there is something I don't understand:

When we talk about 819 line standart, in fact, we have 737 or 768 visibles lines.

In the 1080 lines, I believe that the quantity of visibles lines is 1080 and 1125 lines are transmited.

When I use a oscilloscope, my perios is 37 ns and this is the value for 1080 lines.

Do I make an error?

Is-there something I forget.

Frédéric Cabanes.
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Old 24th Dec 2011, 5:13 pm   #39
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Default Re: Standards converter rebuild.

Here is a table showing the basic timings for all current HD and SD standards. I have not shown the variants of 24/30/60 Hz standards that are adjusted by 1000/1001 to conform to NTSC timings
Attached Files
File Type: doc standards.doc (40.0 KB, 135 views)
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Old 24th Dec 2011, 5:57 pm   #40
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Hi PPPPenguin,

Thank you for all these data.

Frédéric.
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