UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio and TV Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > General Vintage Technology > Clubs, Groups and Societies

Notices

Clubs, Groups and Societies For discussions about various clubs, groups and societies relating to our hobbies, such as the BVWS (incl RetroTechUK), BATC, RSGB, APTS, CLPGS, THG, TCC, BECG, MCR21 etc. This is NOT an official forum for any of these organisations.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old 18th Feb 2006, 4:07 pm   #1
murphymad
Heptode
 
murphymad's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 650
Default BVWS Scanning Project

Split from https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ead.php?t=7405

__________________________________________________


Hello everyone,

It is heart warming to hear that so many people are willing to help if asked, so here goes.

The BVWS has a massive project of scanning service data on it's hands.
When I say massive, I really do mean massive!
We have literally a Ton of info. A lot will have to be sorted to ensure it is not going to be duplicated from what we already have.

The main problem is getting it scanned. Of course once it is scanned it can be distributed on CD/DVD to members.

A huge amount of it is propreitory manufacturers stuff, a lot of the more unusual non-trader low production sets that people are crying out to find.

Well it is not doing anyone any good being stuck on shelves where only a few can get to look at it.

So we need people with time, effort, a good scanner, plenty of disk space and a way of getting the data back to Paul Stenning who will have to drive this project with each participant in respect to the characteristics of the scan needed to make it presentable and printable.

The data would be packaged and sent to, or collected from an event, and would need to be scanned and returned in good time, as a lot of it will be from the Museum and they need to refer to it regularly.
All postal costs etc. would be covered by the BVWS in the usual manner.


Volunteers Queue here:

Many Thanks,

Mike...
__________________
Mike Barker.

Last edited by Paul Stenning; 18th Feb 2006 at 11:54 pm. Reason: Split thread
murphymad is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2006, 5:24 pm   #2
Dual Standard
Hexode
 
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location: Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 263
Default Re: Helping the BVWS with new projects

Quote:
Originally Posted by murphymad
plenty of disk space and a way of getting the data back to Paul Stenning who will have to drive this project with each participant in respect to the characteristics of the scan needed to make it presentable and printable.
Before we all raise our hands perhaps a clue or two from Paul as to what is required from a technical point of view would be useful. I am thinking of scanner size, resolution, output format, etc.

Mike
Dual Standard is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2006, 10:46 pm   #3
GMB
Dekatron
 
GMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,086
Default Re: Helping the BVWS with new projects

Quote:
Before we all raise our hands perhaps a clue or two from Paul as to what is required from a technical point of view would be useful. I am thinking of scanner size, resolution, output format, etc.
This is a big problem as my experience of scanned documents that I find on the web is that they are frequently done in an inappropriate manner which results in either unnecessary file size through to loss or distortion of information.

I believe this to be mainly caused by unhelpful software that suckers the users into doing the wrong thing.

By the way, if you are overwhelmed by the quantity of scanning required you might want to check how much it would cost to have it done professionally. We found it much cheaper than expected when our admin dept. wanted to archive decades of company records.
GMB is offline  
Old 18th Feb 2006, 11:50 pm   #4
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,060
Default Re: Helping the BVWS with new projects

Essentially most A4 flatbed scanners should be OK, as long as the user can directly select the scan resolution and output format. If your scanner is larger than A4 (such as foolscap or even A3) please say so, then we can get you to do some of the larger page items.

It would help if the scanner interface to the PC was USB2 or SCSI. Older USB1.1 and parallel port scanners are slower, which can make a mass scanning job unbearable. You probably don't want it to take much more than 20 seconds to scan an A4 page at 400 DPI black-and-white, otherwise it quickly becomes frustrating.

It should have an OPTICAL resolution of at least 400 by 400 DPI. The software will probably go up to rediculous resolutions but once you get above the optical resolution it is just software fudging.

Most data can be scanned at 400 DPI, in black-and-while (sometimes called lineart) mode - not greyscale. You will need to play around with the threshold setting to give a clean background (the paper will probably be discoloured or dirty) while retaining the clear printing. It's often a bit of a compromise, and you'll probably find a setting that is adequate for most things and just have to tweak it for the odd problematic one.

Items with monochrome photos can normally be scanned at 600 DPI which will pick up the dithering. Failing that they can be scanned in greyscale mode at 400 DPI.

Data with colour sould be scanned in full colour mode (400 DPI) if the colour is necessary. If the colour does not add any useful information then the data should be scanned in black-and-white or greyscale at 400 DPI as above.

If the print is fine or the circuit diagram is detailed etc, increase the scan resolution as necessary. Do not be tempted to scan detailed black-and-white pages in greyscale - it may look OK on the screen but by the time it's converted to PDF and printed it becomes unreadable. It also results in unnecessarily massive files. If in doubt of course, scan the tricky pages two or three different ways and just send them all. I will sort out which is the most usable later.

Scans should be as straight as possible as rotating in software always causes a loss of quality. Adjust the scan area so you are not scanning excessive amounts of nothing, as this will speed up the scanning and give smaller files.

Files should be saved in GIF or TIF format. I can also accept BMP or PCX but these give bogger files. Do NOT use JPG format at any stage as it is a lossy compression format which will result in loss of detail and quality.

If you have a photo editing program it would help if you can crop the scanned pages to get rid of the excess white at the page edges. Some basic tidying up (removing dirty marks and other damage) would also help, though often there isn't much that can be done about this.

It is probably easiest to send files to me on CD-R disks. Organise them logically - perhaps a folder for the manufacturer then folders in that for the models. If there is amore than one manual (such as an amendment or later version) use separate folders suitably named. Pages within the folder should be numbered sequantially (though it doesn't matter if they don't start at 1).

Keep copies of the files on your hard drive (or whatever) until I have confirmed that I have received and can read the CD.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2006, 11:29 am   #5
GMB
Dekatron
 
GMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,086
Default Re: Scanning Project

Note that TIF is not one format but merely a packaging format for many different image mechanisms. Monochrome text scans will usually compress well using CCITT-G4 compression (also called CCITT 2d). If you find this option greyed out then you have greyscale or colour data. The advantage of using this compression method is that the final file size will not grow much if you use a higher resolution. (Personally I would use 300 or 600 dpi as the majority of printers have resolutions that map these in a simple way).
Also watch out that TIF can use JPEG compression as well as JPG files and as Paul says you must never use this compression method as it ruins scanned text. There appears to be one popular scanner software that ends up with JPEG TIFs without the user knowing.
GMB is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2006, 1:17 pm   #6
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,060
Default Re: Scanning Project

Probably better to select "uncompressed TIF" if you have that option then, or go for BMP or PCX if you can't use GIF (GIF is not suitable for full-colour as it only supports up to 256 shades). The file size doesn't really matter at this stage anyway, since the cost of blank CDs is almost negligable.

I would suggest that anyone interested in helping tries scanning 50-100 pages of A4 from a magazine or whatever at the resolutions given above to see whether your equipment is quick enough to make it not too mind-numbing!

If you can use the scanner software directly to scan and save to disk, rather than going through the photo editing software, TWAIN driver and manually saving each scan, that would speed things up significantly.

If you have access to a modern digital photocopier, these can often be used as scanners, either scanning to internal memory or to a network connected PC. These are much quicker than regular flatbed scanners, though generally only do black-and-white.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2006, 7:57 pm   #7
Steve_P
Dekatron
 
Steve_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 6,644
Default Re: Scanning Project

As I said, Here if needed.

And Mike, 1) How many times have you been round here and not dropped in?
2) I'd like my Murphy Radio back please!

Steve P.
__________________
If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?
Steve_P is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2006, 8:30 pm   #8
GMB
Dekatron
 
GMB's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: near Reading (and sometimes Torquay)
Posts: 3,086
Default Re: Scanning Project

Quote:
Probably better to select "uncompressed TIF" if you have that option then, or go for BMP or PCX if you can't use GIF (GIF is not suitable for full-colour as it only supports up to 256 shades). The file size doesn't really matter at this stage anyway, since the cost of blank CDs is almost negligable.
I disagree - I think it better that people should find out how to do it right. The files will be about 30 times smaller with G4 compression compared to a BMP and 720 times smaller than the obvious worst case. In fact if they get it completely wrong they will get just 6 pages per CD!!
My suggestion is that anyone intending to help with a scanning project should submit an example page to make sure they are getting it right. (PS: I would help myself but my scanner is trapped on an obsolete PC and is too slow - I really must get round to upgrading).

For full colour, PNG format using Flate compression will do a little better than TIF using LZW compression. BMP is going to be really large!
GMB is offline  
Old 19th Feb 2006, 9:53 pm   #9
Radio_Doctor
Pentode
 
Radio_Doctor's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Norwich, Norfolk, UK.
Posts: 145
Default Re: Scanning Project

I would be very happy to help. I'm sure I have the right equipment (!), and can follow instructions about files + sizes. I have a broadband connection and USB 2. As per profile I'm in Norwich. I plan to goto the NVCF but may not make it to Harpenden. Let me have more detail when you have finalised project.

Kneale
Radio_Doctor is offline  
Old 20th Feb 2006, 12:15 pm   #10
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 6,118
Default Re: Scanning Project

I would love to help, but the posts so far imply that my ancient parallel port scanner attached to a 486-50 would be way too slow. I would happily work gradually through up to 50 or so pages, but it sounds as though the speed of turn round required is more than I could cope with, although (even with this antiquated setup) this could be achieved by return of post so long as 400 dpi line art were sufficient for all documents sent to me.
Dave Moll is online now  
Old 20th Feb 2006, 7:56 pm   #11
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,060
Default Re: Scanning Project

The speed is more down to what you can tolerate really. The slower it is, the more likely it will become frustrating and tedious. But if you want to have a go at some anyway, that's fine.

Mike Barker is away this week, but I'm sure he'll take a look through this thread when he gets back and start to follow up on some of the offers.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 21st Feb 2006, 1:19 pm   #12
mervyn
Hexode
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Location: Whitfield, Dover, Kent, UK.
Posts: 258
Default Re: Scanning Project

can help if needed .. have a4+ scanner with sheet feeder..+ ample hard disc space.. pc is more than capable
Merv
mervyn is offline  
Old 23rd Feb 2006, 11:39 pm   #13
Photo_Tube
Retired Dormant Member
 
Photo_Tube's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2005
Posts: 118
Default Re: Scanning Project

In the process of getting a new scanner so if you have the documentation -I can pick it up at an BVWS event
Photo_Tube is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 7:14 pm   #14
G0PKH - Pete
Retired Dormant Member
 
G0PKH - Pete's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2003
Location: Stansted Essex
Posts: 263
Default Re: Scanning Project

I would be happy to help.

I have a more than capable PC attached to a SCSI Epson A4 scanner.

Can write both DVD and CD-R

Pete
G0PKH - Pete is offline  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 7:46 pm   #15
Dave Moll
Dekatron
 
Dave Moll's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: West Cumbria (CA13), UK
Posts: 6,118
Default Re: Scanning Project

I think I may have been a little over-optimistic earlier in this thread. It's not so much the time taken to scan line art at 400dpi as the time taken to save it to disc. I will try again with the scanner attached to a faster computer and post again if I have come up with a workable solution.
Dave Moll is online now  
Old 3rd Mar 2006, 9:14 pm   #16
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,060
Default Re: Scanning Project

No problem Dave. This is why I suggested people did some testing to make sure the equipment available could do the job fast enough that it didn't become too tedious.

I know Mike Barker is very busy at the moment, with the NVCF and some family matters, so there may not be much activity on this until after the NVCF. However I will try to catch up with him next week (once he has recovered from Harpenden) and see if he wants to organise mailing some stuff out to those who have offered to help. I guess a small pack each would be good for starters, then you can see how you get on with it.

If any of you who have volunteered have scanners that are larger than A4 (such as foolscap/legal or even A3) please say so then we can send you the larger documents.
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2006, 1:39 pm   #17
Steve_P
Dekatron
 
Steve_P's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2003
Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 6,644
Default Re: Scanning Project

What's happening with this?
__________________
If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?
Steve_P is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2006, 3:40 pm   #18
Paul Stenning
Administrator
 
Paul Stenning's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Cardiff
Posts: 9,060
Default Re: Scanning Project

Mike is very busy still with the NVCF and some family matters, and I am busy with my end-of-year accounts. I would expect us to pick this up again after the NVCF, and one of us will contact everyone who volunteered then.

Rather than just sending out packs of data ar random, we need to sort out what would be the most useful to get scanned (which would mean stuff that is not on Traders and is not so readily available would be higher priority).

Don't worry - it has not been forgotten!
__________________

Paul Stenning
Forum Admin/Owner and BVWS Webmaster
Paul Stenning is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2006, 4:40 pm   #19
Kat Manton
Retired Dormant Member
 
Kat Manton's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: West Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 1,700
Default Re: Scanning Project

Hi,

I've only just noticed this thread; I'd like to raise my hand as well.

Scanner is a Mustek 12000 SP Plus, allegedly 600dpi x 1200dpi optical resolution A4 one-pass colour flatbed SCSI scanner; connected to a 'headless' Linux server and accessed remotely from anything on my LAN via SANE drivers. (Works pretty rapidly as the software's effectively split over two machines.) Available output formats from 'xsane' scanning software directly are JPEG, PNG, PNM, Postscript, text and TIFF. (It'll do a passable attempt at OCR on a good day, with a following wind.. )For any other formats I'd have to acquire the image through 'the gimp' image manipulation software which will save in a few more formats.

I currently have in excess of 200G free space on my fileserver; I don't think that'll be a problem for now

I can burn the resultant files to CD-R in a format Microsoft machines like.

Also, as I'm currently out of work, I might as well use all this time constructively

Regards, Kat
Kat Manton is offline  
Old 17th Mar 2006, 8:59 pm   #20
peter_scott
Dekatron
 
peter_scott's Avatar
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Edinburgh, UK.
Posts: 3,273
Default Re: Scanning Project

I think I'm limited to using Twain and manual storing with my EPSON 1260 A4 scanner. I have about 90G free space at the moment. If you want to send me a modest quantity I'll have a go. Any tips for speeding the process will be welcomed.

Peter.
peter_scott is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 8:53 am.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2023, Paul Stenning.