PYE line-store standards converter - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

Brigham · 12th Apr 2012, 12:28 pm

I see the PYE converter from Ch.8 Burnhope has emerged again, this time in 95% working order. That's 95% better than when I had it. Someone must've spent hours studying it, working it all out.

It's at auction, and currently stands at £50. It cost more than that in van hire to collect it!

It would be a shame to see it go for scrap, after all this time, and presumably after so much TLC. Isn't there a specialist museum for it?

Steve_P · 12th Apr 2012, 12:55 pm

Where's the Auction?

Cheers,

Steve P.

ppppenguin · 12th Apr 2012, 1:03 pm

It's Malcolm Everiss's one. He's selling a lot of kit at the moment.

Brigham · 12th Apr 2012, 1:15 pm

Is he the Domino chap? I seem to remember it went to someone involved with the Domino (or possibly the Dinosaur, I get confused).

ppppenguin · 12th Apr 2012, 3:17 pm

Yes, he designed the Domino. The Dinosaur was done by Dave Grant, aided by Mike Izycky. For a lot more standards converter history look at the articles on my website.

murphyv310 · 12th Apr 2012, 3:42 pm

Nice piece of history and I would certainly take if nearer to home. I have just sold my car to a chap that commutes to Malvern every week and it would go in (Its an MPV) but I think I would be taking a liberty in asking!

12th Apr 2012, 4:07 pm

Many years ago at PYE TVT in my bosses office was a 525/60 to 625/50 converter, it had many huge (over a foot across) glass delay lines in it, these where iregular polygons with a signal path of many tens of feet I guess. I suppose these where multi tapped to give individual 'lines' out to be re-assembled for 625/50, the line period for 525 and 625 being nearly the same.

I can't remember the details but the thing in the office was a great stack of these delay lines in a 19" rack cabinet. I suppose it stored a whole frame.

ppppenguin · 12th Apr 2012, 4:45 pm

That was the BBC analogue framestore converter. The first version was available just in time for the 1968 Mexico Olympics. Later versions were bidirectional. It occupied 7 full rack bays. From memory the primary delays were 60 sided quartz polygons, giving a delay of about 3ms each. No taps, line delays were done by other means. The video was FM with a carrier in the 20-30MHz range.

If you hunt around the BBC research reports and monographs I think there are several papers on the subject. http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/archived.shtml

Peter.N. · 12th Apr 2012, 10:29 pm

Has not Gerald Wells got something like that in his establishment?

Peter

jjl · 12th Apr 2012, 11:46 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve_P

Where's the Auction?

I'd like to see some details of the auction too. If they can't be posted here, please can someone send me a PM.

John

ppppenguin · 13th Apr 2012, 6:23 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter.N.

Has not Gerald Wells got something like that in his establishment?

Gerry has a Pye built CO6/501 line store converter, similar to the one currently for sale. Not operational. He also has the later digital CO6/509. AFAIK there isn't a BBC field store converter in preservation. I don't even know if any of the quartz delays survive.

beamcurrent · 13th Apr 2012, 8:57 am

There is one of the larger glass delay lines in a nice wooden display case located in BBC TVC CCA (or CAR in earlier times). As I recall the case carries a "Queens Award to Industry" plate.

I have a smaller glass block delay line in the museums collection. it is about 8 inches across. I have not been able to find exactly what equipment this smaller block was used in?

I too think the CO6/501 standards converter should have a good home so I have a bid on it for the www.tvcameramuseum.org It will complement the camera collection nicely!

Regards

Davewantsone · 13th Apr 2012, 9:06 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by jjl

I'd like to see some details of the auction too. If they can't be posted here, please can someone send me a PM.

Have you tried looking on "flEa Bay" under television antiques?

HamishBoxer · 13th Apr 2012, 1:11 pm

Rules do say we use correct name,Ebay.

HamishBoxer · 13th Apr 2012, 1:17 pm

230774044106 Thats the number Steve on Ebay.

Trish · 13th Apr 2012, 5:33 pm

Looking at it I am wondering if this was one of the converters that Terry Corbyn helped to develop. He told me that it was packed full of OC series transistors, OC44's and the OC13x/OC14x series were mentioned. The last I heard of him was when he finished work at ITN on the VT80 graphics generator, when he left the industry to better pastures.

Trish

ppppenguin · 13th Apr 2012, 5:40 pm

The design team was led by Eric Rout who later became head of BBC Designs Dept. Rout also wrote several of the papers and BBC reports on conversion methods. There must have been a significant team of engineers working with him to do the job. Several of them are named on the various BBC reseach reports which can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/archived.shtml

murphyv310 · 13th Apr 2012, 8:00 pm

Hi.
The problem with this unit is its weight, size and for some the complexity. This unit really should be housed in a museum, repaired and occasionally demonstrated.
I always shudder when items like this go into private hands as there is no future safeguard for upkeep and the items long term future.

murphymad · 13th Apr 2012, 11:25 pm

Hi All,

Having been one of the people who took a very long drive from Swindon to Stockton on Tees to get this in its original form and then unload it after an equally long drive. I can confirm it is very very heavy and will need several people to be around when it is moved.
Even when the cabinets are empty of all equipment they need two hefty chaps to lift them with care.
There are also tons of spares for the beast.

I can also confirm that this converter has had many hundreds of hours spent on it and also many hundreds of pounds too. Even to the point of making test rigs to individually establish the goodness and suitability of the characteristics of the thousand plus OC140 transistors in use as well as all of the electrolytics.
It was not enough to just find NOS OC140's, nor to take it that all new electrolytics were the same for the special circuits. Not to mention the really whacky special transistors that are used in some modules.

The converter in its current state is never switched off. It is one of those things that will last much longer without problems if kept in this state rather than being switched on and off at will, so this should be taken into consideration for its future longevity.

I agree that it is a Museum piece, but it is not dead or static and should be kept alive and running with input and output signals being shown on monitors as it is now.

The Analogue part of what is at Dulwich is dead and most unlikely to ever be running again now we know just how much effort is needed to sucessfully get one running with an acceptable result, so this is probably the only one known to be in a running state.

I know there are several of these converters about, but to my knowledge, non of them are working anything like this one.

I really do hope it goes to a good home where it will be looked after and kept in a warm and dry environment where it can be kept running 24 hours.

Mike...

ppppenguin · 14th Apr 2012, 7:14 am

Some years ago (probably in the late 1980s) I took a look at the Museum's CO6/501 with a view to getting it working properly. At the time it had given pictures of a sort but was clearly in a bad way. I got a few modules working again but the huge amount of work involved in renovating the stores and switches made me think again.

I can't remember whether this was before or after the Museum was given the CO6/509. This was pretty easy to get going, ISTR it was little more than PSU faults. I repaired 1 or 2 faults on it over the next few years. I think Dave Grant has looked after it since then. It's basically reliable but I suspect it's getting due for mass replacement of electrolytics.

Mike Barker mentioned that the CO6/501 that's for sale is kept continuously powered. I wonder if the Colossus method of windng it up and down gently on a variac would be a good idea. All the PSUs are linear so they shouldn't mind the intermediate voltages.

Malcolm certainly had to do a massive amount of work, just to get it to 90% working. I think he wrote it up in the BVWS Bulletin. The OC140 is a strange device, it's symmetrical, C and E are interchangeable. Many are used for switching functions in the converter. There is no substitute. Loads of fast GE diodes, transistors like ASZ21. Again unreliable with no effective subsititute.

12th Apr 2012, 12:28 pm	#1
Brigham Octode Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Co. Durham, UK. Posts: 1,116	PYE line-store standards converter I see the PYE converter from Ch.8 Burnhope has emerged again, this time in 95% working order. That's 95% better than when I had it. Someone must've spent hours studying it, working it all out. It's at auction, and currently stands at £50. It cost more than that in van hire to collect it! It would be a shame to see it go for scrap, after all this time, and presumably after so much TLC. Isn't there a specialist museum for it?

12th Apr 2012, 12:55 pm	#2
Steve_P Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2003 Location: Bolton, Greater Manchester, UK. Posts: 6,644	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Where's the Auction? Cheers, Steve P. __________________ If we've always had it, why is the Car Boot open? You're not sneaking another Old TV in are you...?

12th Apr 2012, 1:03 pm	#3
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: PYE line-store standards converter It's Malcolm Everiss's one. He's selling a lot of kit at the moment.

12th Apr 2012, 1:15 pm	#4
Brigham Octode Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: Co. Durham, UK. Posts: 1,116	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Is he the Domino chap? I seem to remember it went to someone involved with the Domino (or possibly the Dinosaur, I get confused).

12th Apr 2012, 3:17 pm	#5
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Yes, he designed the Domino. The Dinosaur was done by Dave Grant, aided by Mike Izycky. For a lot more standards converter history look at the articles on my website.

12th Apr 2012, 3:42 pm	#6
murphyv310 Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK. Posts: 5,422	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Nice piece of history and I would certainly take if nearer to home. I have just sold my car to a chap that commutes to Malvern every week and it would go in (Its an MPV) but I think I would be taking a liberty in asking! __________________ Cheers, Trevor. MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member

12th Apr 2012, 4:07 pm	#7
Guest Guest Posts: n/a	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Many years ago at PYE TVT in my bosses office was a 525/60 to 625/50 converter, it had many huge (over a foot across) glass delay lines in it, these where iregular polygons with a signal path of many tens of feet I guess. I suppose these where multi tapped to give individual 'lines' out to be re-assembled for 625/50, the line period for 525 and 625 being nearly the same. I can't remember the details but the thing in the office was a great stack of these delay lines in a 19" rack cabinet. I suppose it stored a whole frame.

12th Apr 2012, 4:45 pm	#8
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: PYE line-store standards converter That was the BBC analogue framestore converter. The first version was available just in time for the 1968 Mexico Olympics. Later versions were bidirectional. It occupied 7 full rack bays. From memory the primary delays were 60 sided quartz polygons, giving a delay of about 3ms each. No taps, line delays were done by other means. The video was FM with a carrier in the 20-30MHz range. If you hunt around the BBC research reports and monographs I think there are several papers on the subject. http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/archived.shtml

12th Apr 2012, 10:29 pm	#9
Peter.N. Dekatron Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Charmouth, Dorset, UK. Posts: 3,601	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Has not Gerald Wells got something like that in his establishment? Peter

13th Apr 2012, 8:57 am	#12
beamcurrent Heptode Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Camberley, Surrey, UK. Posts: 805	Re: PYE line-store standards converter There is one of the larger glass delay lines in a nice wooden display case located in BBC TVC CCA (or CAR in earlier times). As I recall the case carries a "Queens Award to Industry" plate. I have a smaller glass block delay line in the museums collection. it is about 8 inches across. I have not been able to find exactly what equipment this smaller block was used in? I too think the CO6/501 standards converter should have a good home so I have a bid on it for the www.tvcameramuseum.org It will complement the camera collection nicely! Regards

13th Apr 2012, 1:11 pm	#14
HamishBoxer Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK. Posts: 8,932	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Rules do say we use correct name,Ebay.

13th Apr 2012, 1:17 pm	#15
HamishBoxer Dekatron Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: W.Butterwick, near Doncaster UK. Posts: 8,932	Re: PYE line-store standards converter 230774044106 Thats the number Steve on Ebay.

13th Apr 2012, 5:33 pm	#16
Trish Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Apr 2005 Location: Reading, Berkshire, UK. Posts: 95	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Looking at it I am wondering if this was one of the converters that Terry Corbyn helped to develop. He told me that it was packed full of OC series transistors, OC44's and the OC13x/OC14x series were mentioned. The last I heard of him was when he finished work at ITN on the VT80 graphics generator, when he left the industry to better pastures. Trish

13th Apr 2012, 5:40 pm	#17
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: PYE line-store standards converter The design team was led by Eric Rout who later became head of BBC Designs Dept. Rout also wrote several of the papers and BBC reports on conversion methods. There must have been a significant team of engineers working with him to do the job. Several of them are named on the various BBC reseach reports which can be found here: http://www.bbc.co.uk/rd/publications/archived.shtml

13th Apr 2012, 8:00 pm	#18
murphyv310 Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Kilmarnock, Ayrshire, UK. Posts: 5,422	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Hi. The problem with this unit is its weight, size and for some the complexity. This unit really should be housed in a museum, repaired and occasionally demonstrated. I always shudder when items like this go into private hands as there is no future safeguard for upkeep and the items long term future. __________________ Cheers, Trevor. MM0KJJ. RSGB, GQRP, WACRAL, K&LARC. Member

13th Apr 2012, 11:25 pm	#19
murphymad Heptode Join Date: May 2003 Location: Devizes, Wiltshire, UK. Posts: 650	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Hi All, Having been one of the people who took a very long drive from Swindon to Stockton on Tees to get this in its original form and then unload it after an equally long drive. I can confirm it is very very heavy and will need several people to be around when it is moved. Even when the cabinets are empty of all equipment they need two hefty chaps to lift them with care. There are also tons of spares for the beast. I can also confirm that this converter has had many hundreds of hours spent on it and also many hundreds of pounds too. Even to the point of making test rigs to individually establish the goodness and suitability of the characteristics of the thousand plus OC140 transistors in use as well as all of the electrolytics. It was not enough to just find NOS OC140's, nor to take it that all new electrolytics were the same for the special circuits. Not to mention the really whacky special transistors that are used in some modules. The converter in its current state is never switched off. It is one of those things that will last much longer without problems if kept in this state rather than being switched on and off at will, so this should be taken into consideration for its future longevity. I agree that it is a Museum piece, but it is not dead or static and should be kept alive and running with input and output signals being shown on monitors as it is now. The Analogue part of what is at Dulwich is dead and most unlikely to ever be running again now we know just how much effort is needed to sucessfully get one running with an acceptable result, so this is probably the only one known to be in a running state. I know there are several of these converters about, but to my knowledge, non of them are working anything like this one. I really do hope it goes to a good home where it will be looked after and kept in a warm and dry environment where it can be kept running 24 hours. Mike... __________________ Mike Barker.

14th Apr 2012, 7:14 am	#20
ppppenguin Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2003 Location: North London, UK. Posts: 6,168	Re: PYE line-store standards converter Some years ago (probably in the late 1980s) I took a look at the Museum's CO6/501 with a view to getting it working properly. At the time it had given pictures of a sort but was clearly in a bad way. I got a few modules working again but the huge amount of work involved in renovating the stores and switches made me think again. I can't remember whether this was before or after the Museum was given the CO6/509. This was pretty easy to get going, ISTR it was little more than PSU faults. I repaired 1 or 2 faults on it over the next few years. I think Dave Grant has looked after it since then. It's basically reliable but I suspect it's getting due for mass replacement of electrolytics. Mike Barker mentioned that the CO6/501 that's for sale is kept continuously powered. I wonder if the Colossus method of windng it up and down gently on a variac would be a good idea. All the PSUs are linear so they shouldn't mind the intermediate voltages. Malcolm certainly had to do a massive amount of work, just to get it to 90% working. I think he wrote it up in the BVWS Bulletin. The OC140 is a strange device, it's symmetrical, C and E are interchangeable. Many are used for switching functions in the converter. There is no substitute. Loads of fast GE diodes, transistors like ASZ21. Again unreliable with no effective subsititute.