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Old 19th Aug 2018, 11:19 am   #41
David Simpson
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Since Al has told us that the weatherboard cladding is now permanently nailed to the stud framing, I guess he might avoid rain ingress if he keeps a mastic gun handy. Regular checks for shakes, knotholes & minor splits near nail/bolt holes. External facings on all four corners & windows & doors will help.
Any combination of the internal claddings & insulation recommended should suffice. However, my recommendation just now would be to hang fast & wait to see what the Somerset winter throws at you, Al. Then decide.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 12:20 pm   #42
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I have looked at the walls from the inside and yes, there were some gaps that I filled with mastic. If I look harder, I will probably find some more. David, above, suggests that I wait a bit to see what the coming winter will do to this shed, prior to proceeding with the insulation: I can see that there is some sense in that. However, what is really relevant to that idea is the reason this shed was constructed: it's a bit of a long story . . .

The kitchen in this house - built about 1917 - is the original scullery. It has fairly modern kit fitted, but it is very small compared to other rooms in this house (3 floors + attic; 4 bedrooms: one is very large). At the back of this kitchen towards the back garden, someone in the past has bolted-on an aluminium-framed conservatory, which is in poor condition. Currently, that is being used as my mechanical / woodworking / D-I-Y repair workshop. The plan is to have that demolished and to expand the kitchen into the resultant space. But, of course, I need the shed to be up & running first with all the kit in that workshop transferred. Although planning permission has been obtained for the expanded / new kitchen, trying to find a suitable builder who will do this work and at a sensible price has been - and continues to be - difficult. But it will happen - one day. So, in summary, there is no real hurry to get this shed completed, so I can use that to my advantage.

Al.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 5:10 pm   #43
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

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(Heating and ventilation will be required, but that can wait for another thread)
Just a quick reminder of Al's requirements, these threads quickly become entangled and we're still at the planning stage.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 6:35 pm   #44
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Question Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

In my post 19, I presented a drawing of what I now believe to be the correct arrangement for the insulation, etc. Can someone comment on that, please - is it right, wrong, or need amendment?

Thank you.

Al.
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Old 19th Aug 2018, 7:12 pm   #45
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

It is given the circumstances so far as I can make out.

Lawrence.
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Old 21st Aug 2018, 9:52 am   #46
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Hi

Thanks to members' suggestions and info re various roof coverings, it's given me further options to explore.

Regards
Symon.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 12:17 am   #47
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Question Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Time for an update - and one specific question.

Studding and noggins have now been fitted to all the walls; I await the arrival of the insulation sheets. In the meantime, I am thinking about heating & ventilation.

Heating: an oil-filled electrically-powered radiator, say 2 kW. - ideally with an integral temp. controller as a source of low-level background heat. May add a timer. Purpose: not so much as to make the shed comfortable to work in, (which will be mainly periods of short duration) but to aid ventilation to avoid condensation.

Ventilation: fit one humidity-controlled fan at one end of the shed - it has a peaked roof, so the fan will be high up and another 'ordinary' fan at the other end, but low to the ground. (The 'thinking': external air pulled in; gets heated; the air absorbs moisture; the warm air + moisture content rises; the moist air expelled from the room). Suitable covers will be fitted on the outside of each fan to permit air flow but prevent the ingress of insects, etc. But one Q.: do I really need to install a humidity-controlled fan? Is that 'over-kill'? Will an 'ordinary' 'extractor fan suffice? - Perhaps controlled by a timer?

So in addition to that specific Q., any other helpful & relevant remarks to the above will be appreciated; thank you.

Al.
Oct. 20th.

Last edited by Skywave; 20th Oct 2018 at 12:21 am. Reason: Misc. edits to improve clarity.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 8:33 am   #48
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Al, I very strongly recommend a dehumidifier. The amount of water that the one in the garage extracts from the air is truly incredible. Never underestimate just how much moisture there is in sheds/garages. They are not expensive, either to purchase or run, and will provide an off-set saving in heating costs.

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Richard
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 8:55 am   #49
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

You'll find a timber building will naturally help to control humidity as wood asbosrbs a lot of humidity. But as suggested, an actual dehumidifier is good idea if humidity is a concern.

The risk of trying to control humidity via a supply and extract fan is that there's almost no control over the quality and content of the air which is being drawn into the shed.

A heater and dehumidifier is the way I'd go.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 10:16 am   #50
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

A dehumidifier is a good idea, go for a desiccant type, not a compressor type.

The desiccant type will happily work below 10 degrees C with the added bonus of generating heat, the compressor type will just ice up & eventually wreck itself.

The one I use is an Ecoair, plus a wall mounted oil radiator from Screwfix, the room stays a comfortable 19 degrees at 60-odd % relative humidity.

My old compressor dehumidifier was useless in the winter, the radiator would pump out heat, the dehumidifier would chuck out cold air and in the end, ice up. The new desiccant one is brilliant, the radiator isn't working nearly so hard either.

Mark
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 10:22 am   #51
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I use a dehumidifier on a timer in my insulated 8x12 shed workshop. It reverse cycle defrosts about every 12 minutes and I have never had any problems due to low temperature or ice.
I know a fellow enthusiast who had one where the plastic bits around the control part had a small fire. Didn't burn his shed but the corrosive fumes did a lot of damage.
Having said this I still haven't installed any type of alarm in my shed. On my to do list.
Rob
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 10:38 am   #52
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I just use an old greenhouse fan heater in my shed, and after nearly 3 years I’ve not had any trouble with damp. I also have an old bathroom extractor fan, mostly put in to take out solder fumes! It does keep a bit of airflow too. For temperature control I have a wireless thermostat on the wall by the door, set at 17 during the day and most of the night, and ramps up to 21 when I’m normally in there, it also has manual override too. I find the fan heater is better at circulating the air, it blows the heat across the floor rather than it going straight up to the ceiling.

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Old 20th Oct 2018, 10:52 am   #53
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Thanks gentlemen: very informative. The primary concern is the possibility of condensation taking place on cold steel objects, such as a bench-mounted pillar drill, a 4 inch bench vice and assorted steel tools, etc. There is also the question of deterioration of the fabric of the building and possible mould formation due to damp. However, there is no serious rush for a solution, so I'll wait for a few days to read any other comments that may subsequently arrive.

Quote:
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The risk of trying to control humidity via a supply and extract fan is that there's almost no control over the quality and content of the air which is being drawn into the shed.
Quite: that thought had crossed my mind.

Al.

Last edited by Skywave; 20th Oct 2018 at 11:05 am. Reason: Re-write after a second review of posts by members & add quote.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 11:30 am   #54
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

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A dehumidifier is a good idea, go for a desiccant type, not a compressor type.

The desiccant type will happily work below 10 degrees C with the added bonus of generating heat, the compressor type will just ice up & eventually wreck itself.
I have a compressor type which has auto defrost. It works very well.

In my opinion though, it's pointless trying to dehumidify a cold area, as due point will still be an issue. There is a lot of control over due point with heat as well as a dehumidifier.

It's best to heat the area, then consider humidity levels.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 11:39 am   #55
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

Experience gained over the course of a couple of seasons will be instructive, but in general I would join those who recommend a dehumidifier. In which case, you need to seal up the shed as best as you can so that you're not attempting to dehumidify the planet Without reading the whole thread, I would imagine that a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation has already been recommended? That's really important, but fortunately it's cheap and easy to do.

I have a compressor type in my cellar and it works really well. It also chucks out a fair amount of heat, so reducing the amount of heat that I need to add in the winter. Without additional heating, the temperature down there is typically 18 degrees; very welcome in the hot summer after cycling home!

The heat that comes from a compressor-type dehumidifier costs less than the same amount of heat from a standard resistive heater because of the latent heat of evaporation. That heat obviously helps to keep things above the dew point, which is an additional benefit to the basic moisture removal effect of the dehumidifier. Win-win

I've not tried using a dehumidifier in low temperatures, so can't comment on whether a desiccant unit would be better than a compressor time, but personally, I'd prefer to not let the temperature drop to those sorts of temperatures anyway. With good insulation and excellent air sealing, that need not be expensive - certainly not expensive relative to the value of the contents in most cases.

Unfortunately, the idea of pulling outside air through a shed in order to keep it dry really does not make sense in the UK's temperate climate. In the mornings when the outside air is wet and the contents of the shed will be cold, condensation will form on the items stored there - especially those that have a high thermal mass (large metal objects). Just look at cars parked overnight at this time of the year! That condensation might well evaporate by later in the morning or early in the afternoon if the items have warmed up, but the cycle will repeat every day at least - more frequently when it's raining or foggy. Far better to seal it up and extract the moisture from that small volume of enclosed air with a dehumidifier - and that approach is neither difficult nor expensive.

Referring back to my opening sentence, the most important thing is to gather data about the space. I always recommend a unit that displays temperature, humidity and dew point: http://www.extech.com/display/?id=14270 - I also have an infra-red thermometer (often offered for less than £20 in the discount supermarkets) so I can see in an instant if objects are below the dew point. More elaborate options are possible, but this is the minimum I'd recommend.

Useful interactive dew point calculator here: http://www.dpcalc.org/
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 11:47 am   #56
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Arrow Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

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Originally Posted by mhennessy View Post
. . . you need to seal up the shed as best as you can so that you're not attempting to dehumidify the planet Without reading the whole thread, I would imagine that a vapour barrier on the warm side of the insulation has already been recommended?
Indeed it has - and that is included in the overall plan.

Extech 445815: Hygro-Thermometer Humidity Alert with Dew Point: Amazon price £35.00.

Recently I bought an infra-red thermometer from a charity shop: £5.00. Works O.K, too!

Al.

Last edited by Skywave; 20th Oct 2018 at 11:59 am.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 10:50 pm   #57
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Arrow Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

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Originally Posted by YoungManGW View Post
I very strongly recommend a dehumidifier. They are not expensive, either to purchase or run, and will provide an off-set saving in heating costs.
Thanks for that. When you state "They are not expensive to purchase", what sort of price range do you have in mind? And any particular brand & model that you'd recommend?

Al.
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Old 20th Oct 2018, 11:26 pm   #58
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I bought a Dimplex one, was around the £100 mark. I'd be prepared to pay more for a larger one as they really are good.
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 12:04 am   #59
mhennessy
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I have an Ebac Powerdri unit. It cost £200 when I bought it 5 years ago. I see that Screwfix still stock it for around £230. It hasn't skipped a beat in all that time - money well spent.

It has an automatic defrost mode, so is usable in low temperatures (down to 3 degrees according to the manufacturer) but as I said earlier I haven't tried using it in such extremes so can't comment on how it performs in those conditions.

The drain feeds into a sump arrangement in the cellar. In a shed, it would be easy to run a pipe to an external reservoir or soakaway. That's something to watch for: not all dehumidifiers provide a connection to an external condensate drain, and manually emptying the reservoir gets pretty tiresome.

Based on the happy outcome of this old thread - https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=127434 - I'd have no hesitation recommending Ebac dehumidifiers
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Old 21st Oct 2018, 9:45 am   #60
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Default Re: Thermal insulation for a wooden shed: advice, please.

I got a small compressor type dehumidifier from B&Q, I think it’s one of their own brand things ( Blyss), they were £110 last time I looked, but when I got mine they were £99, and because we have their club card we get money off vouchers every so often, so we got another £20 knocked off! Gets used in the house quite often, holds about 2.5l, but also has an external drain if you need it. It can easily suck the humidity down to 30% in a bedroom that has got to 75% in a day.

Regards,
Lloyd
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