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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 1st Dec 2019, 8:11 pm   #1
Atmosferit
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Lightbulb Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Hi,

I'm a "retro computer" person, and my computer of choice was the Oric Atmos, a 1984 British computer notorious for having issues loading tapes.

Fast forward 35 years, and we have the same situation, but with tapes that have sometimes been in harsh conditions and decks that are very tired with melted belts and flaky springs and pulleys.

Since there are a lot of tapes out there that have not been digitized and are in risks of disappearance, and since there was never an agrement even back in the days about which tape decks (Mono shoe box, dictaphone, HIFI deck, boombox, ...) and tapes formats (Fero, Chrome, Metal?) were the bests, I decided to start a small project involving comparing a bunch of contenders in the various categories, so I found a bunch of devices, from friends, from ebay, from local shops, which were externally in outstanding condition but which after listening to music, trying to load some reference tape probably need some attention, like replacing belts, lubricating, etc...

Which brings me to two specific questions:
1) Would you leave a seemingly working tape device as is, or would you preemptively replace the belts, capstans, capacitors, whatever...
2) Where would you recommend that I get new parts from, knowing that I'm living in Norway and I'm interested by proper working belts, not just cheap "good enough"

Regarding the devices, I do have the following:
  • Shoebox format: Philips AQ6355, Sony TCM-939
  • Walkman format: Philips D6595
  • Data Recorder: Alba R-170, Binatone Data Recorder, Ingersoll XK696
  • Dictaphone: Sanyo TRC-1148
  • Multi-Track: Fostex X-12
  • Pro Recorder: Marantz CP430
  • HiFi: Yamaha TC800D
  • Tanashin: Super USB Cassette Capture (Just for reference)
basically I'd like to get them all to a point where they are working close enough to their original specs so the comparison makes sense, which means correct speed and no wobbly sound.

Thanks!

PS: If anyone knows where to find a copy of the Alba R-170 or Ingersoll XK696 user manual, I would be interested.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 12:46 am   #2
ben
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I would strongly suggest that you look for a mono cassette player that has bass and treble controls and varispeed. One model with those is the Philips AQ6455, the model above what you have, would be a good starting point as they are fairly recent (we bought some at work in about 2006 and the belts were still okay when I last tried one last year). The older D6350 has the same features, but some of the plastic gears used in the deck may have gone brittle and self destructed by now.

This will allow you to finely adjust the volume, tonal balance and the playback speed until you get even the most 'awkward' tapes to load. Of course, you may also need to adjust the head azimuth for each tape.

In my view, there is little point in trying to renovate all kinds of decks in order to perform experiments of this kind. It is a lot of work and very time consuming (and can be frustrating!). Some of those decks are not versatile enough (no varispeed or tone controls) and therefore you wouldn't gain much from all the work. Since we are talking about data, then things like stereo audio and wow and flutter which are noticeable on music, are not critical. Focus on speed, azimuth and tonal quality.
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Last edited by ben; 2nd Dec 2019 at 12:56 am.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 12:54 am   #3
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Forgot to mention: I also have the Alba R170, Sony TCM939 (no manuals , sadly!). These are good but not versatile enough. The Marantz is a fine machine and has varispeed, so try that one. Next would be the multitrack for same reason. Sadly, neither of those two have a tone or EQ adjustments, hence my suggestion of that Philips.

Once you find a deck that loads most the software into your Oric, I would connect it to a PC and dub the tapes to Audacity.

You could dub difficult tapes that way too, adjust the volume and tone/EQ in Audacity, then try re recording back to a new cassette (on the Marantz which has manual rec level) and see if they then load.

If they work and fast wind is good, leave the belts alone.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 1:08 am   #4
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I may be wrong but I don't think you would be able to still buy manufacturers' made belts for the models listed ..except maybe the Sanyo.

The Philips models are not the ones the enthusiasts like which were made in a real Philips factory in Austria, but appear to be the later made in China type that was probably making tape players for anybody and changing the specifications slightly from week to week .

For these types of machines, you might have to resort to a 'belt supplier', who is not interested in the make or model of the tape machine but just the dimensions of the belt. Good belt suppliers understand what is expected of a belt in, for example, a tape recorder and supply accordingly to that specification.

an example in the UK. http://www.tapedrivebelts.co.uk/


.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 2:55 pm   #5
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Just order a selection of generic belts for about a quid from one of the Chinese eBay suppliers. This is often all you need to replace the belts on low end cassette recorders. The main capstan belt is more substantial in hifi and pro machines, so you will need to order something from CPC. Belt dimensions are less critical than is often assumed.

Example: https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mix-casse...s/372798575192
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 3:57 pm   #6
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I have had poor results with all three of the Chinese belt kits I have ordered. The rubber appears to be offcuts or something as there is poor uniformity leading to bad flutter. Perhaps someone who has had good experience with such a belt pack could suggest a specific source?
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 4:01 pm   #7
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I have bought a few sets in the past without problems, but it's possible that the quality has deteriorated since then. I haven't bought any for a couple of years, so thanks for the heads up.

Even with poor quality they should be OK for things like tape counters and tray ejection mechs, though perhaps not as main capstan belts.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 6:26 pm   #8
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

The Marantz CP430 was a really good machine. I've just refurbished mine, (had it from new).
Definitely worth considering, & belts were no problem to source.

David.
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 9:40 pm   #9
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Thanks for the feedback.

I did not know the Philips AQ6455, seems indeed like an interesting model!

For the belts replacements, I was planning to get quality ones only for the Marantz and the Fostex, I know there are a bunch of sellers on ebay who sell "kits" already made, but I did not buy any so far, I wanted to make sure they were actually good belts, not just some random generic ones that more or less fit.

For the other devices, I had considered the generic sets, but I had heard bad things as well, so I did not order anything, but indeed could work for the secondary parts like the position counter.

Regarding the time spent on servicing and comparing, I know it would be large, but I've been annoyed at people saying all and their opposite regarding which tape decks were the best to use to load stuff, and I'm already spending a lot of time doing retro stuff, youtube channel, blogging, etc... just skipping one week update would give enough free time to service a few devices

Any other belt suppliers you would recommend, other than http://www.tapedrivebelts.co.uk ?

I've heard both good and bad things about "marss", "Thakker" and "mihok", I've read bad things about "revox_de" on ebay, some people recommend ASWO and Farnell, but the main problem seems to be that the hero one year are the vilains a few years later, so the information seem to be hard to keep up to date!

The Marantz is indeed a really nice one, and the one I found is basically "new", but it plays "wonky" so I hope replacing belts will fill that (you can see it on the video I made last week: https://youtu.be/K3kYPxscUxI?t=461)
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Old 2nd Dec 2019, 11:08 pm   #10
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I've bought fine belts from Cricklewood Electronics, and CPC Farnell has a good selection. There are numerous UK suppliers of square section belts, from industry to audio websites but the difficulty is whether they post to Norway.

If you wanted something from one of the UK suppliers, I for one would be happy to get it delivered here, and then forward it on to you.

I avoid buying from China because of personal qualms; lax quality control being the apolitical reason. At least with a supplier in the same country there's someone on the end of the telephone if it doesn't work, and I'd rather support them so they stay there!
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 11:40 am   #11
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I don't know the specific cassette decks you mention, but if you're trying to recover the best possible signal from cassettes in uncertain condition, consider a dual-capstan deck. Most 3-head hi-fi cassette decks have dual capstans, and it really helps to keep the tape tension constant and the tape in good contact with the heads, instead of relying on the cassette's pressure pad.

I fairly recently transcribed some communist-era Polish prerecorded cassettes and, though the underlying recording quality was good, the oxide was almost falling off the tape, leading to a lot of dropouts. Using a dual-capstan deck made quite a dramatic difference, reducing the dropouts a lot. This will be really important for successful loading of computer programs.

Any such deck is likely to be stereo, so mix both left and right channels together either electronically or in software, to get the optimum signal from as much of the surface of the tape as possible. And adjust the azimuth for every cassette.

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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 12:32 pm   #12
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

It's worth ordering a bag of the generic Chinese belts for a pound even if the quality is poor. There are lots of applications where you simply don't need a high quality belt, and having a range of differently sized belts to hand makes it easier to determine the required size even if you finish up ordering from CPC or wherever.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 4:17 pm   #13
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by cmjones01 View Post
Any such deck is likely to be stereo, so mix both left and right channels together either electronically or in software, to get the optimum signal from as much of the surface of the tape as possible. And adjust the azimuth for every cassette.
I'd actually be wary of stereo; if there are minute phasing errors between the channels that can cause filtering effects in the resulting mono signal, making it hard to interpret. I'd choose the right channel, as it is farther from the edge of the tape and hence tends to be less subject to dust and tape edge damage. It's not usually the signal-to-noise ratio that's a problem with computer tapes.

It's worth experimenting which works best, of course.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 5:50 pm   #14
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

I agree with this. It is very difficult to eliminate phase errors when a stereo cassette head is paralleled to produce a mono output. The deck needs to be set up absolutely perfectly, and many domestic hifi decks simply don't have the level of adjustment required, even if the required test tapes and lab equipment are available.
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Old 3rd Dec 2019, 9:37 pm   #15
Atmosferit
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Quote:
It is very difficult to eliminate phase errors when a stereo cassette head is paralleled to produce a mono output.
So, better to use a stereo deck and select the best track, than to use a mono deck?

Quote:
I'd choose the right channel, as it is farther from the edge of the tape and hence tends to be less subject to dust and tape edge damage. It's not usually the signal-to-noise ratio that's a problem with computer tapes.
Hmm, never thought about it that way, in my mental image, the right track was on the border, like on a road (at least not in UK, Japan or Australia!).

Quote:
Most 3-head hi-fi cassette decks have dual capstans, and it really helps to keep the tape tension constant and the tape in good contact with the heads, instead of relying on the cassette's pressure pad.
I've been considering hi-fi decks, but these things are unfortunately out my budget (the few for sales in Norway are super expensive) and I would not feel comfortable buying one that I can't try/test before buying.

In order to test the tape drives to see if they are in the "expected range", what do you advise?
I've been using a 3000kz signal tape and the wfgui_8 software to check the wow and flutter, but I guess that's not all there is?

Is there a way to check the azimuth, other than "turn the screw until it sounds higher pitched" ?
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 12:09 am   #16
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
...It is very difficult to eliminate phase errors when a stereo cassette head is paralleled to produce a mono output...
Yes and this is equally a problem with a mono head. A stereo head is more tolerant of azimuth errors in a mono recording. Of course playing back a true mono tape, the stereo head does miss some information in the gap between its left and right pole pieces but usually that loss is more than offset by the stereo head's greater tolerance of azimuth error.

Apart from the greater tolerance of azimuth error, once the tape is digitised, we can use an "azimuth corrector" plug in to time align the two tracks. Then the two tracks can be digitally summed to mono, with minimal losses. Often this moderately lowers the tape noise and somewhat reduces tape dropout, compared to the separate stereo tracks.

Regardless the head should still be manually aligned for best alignment to the tape, listening in both stereo and mono. A stereo playback on its own doesn't eliminate azimuth errors. It's just not as fussy as a mono head or a paralleled the stereo head.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 8:39 am   #17
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Reproduced azimuth can shift just by removal and reinsertion of the cassette - this is one of the reasons why a good dual-capstan transport is useful for transfer work, in that it isolates the tape to a large degree from the cassette mechanism. As noted elsewhere, the Nakamichi transport is the most advanced in this regard, as it lifts the cassette's pressure pad out of contact with the head - this is particularly useful with pre-recorded shells where the pad can be just a lump of foam with a skin. By this time many of these foams have crumbled into uselessness and taken the HF response with them.

Undoubtedly the best way to retrieve a mono cassete recording is to reproduce on a stereo head carefully aligned for minimum phase shift and then to refine in azimuth correction software before summing. The CEDAR azimuth software is superb, as it should be at the price, but there are other packages which do a decent job.
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Old 4th Dec 2019, 10:22 am   #18
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Quote:
Originally Posted by TIMTAPE View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
...It is very difficult to eliminate phase errors when a stereo cassette head is paralleled to produce a mono output...
Yes and this is equally a problem with a mono head
I'm glad to hear that - I was about to ask why a mono head wouldn't suffer from exactly the same problem!

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Old 4th Dec 2019, 9:04 pm   #19
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

Quote:
The CEDAR azimuth software is superb, as it should be at the price, but there are other packages which do a decent job.
I searched for it, but all I saw was some hardware solution, like the AZ-1, did I miss something?

I find funny that in my first message I wrote that it seemed that there was never an agreement about the type of tape deck to use, and in all your (very instructive and interesting!) answers, we have a confirmation that there is indeed no agreement, because I've seen:
- Should use a mono device (with variable speed and treble control)
- Should use a stereo device (and make sure to tweak the track alignment before merging)

with a side mention to "should use something with dual capstan to maintain a good tension on the tape even if the foam thingy is damaged".

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Old 5th Dec 2019, 1:11 am   #20
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Default Re: Suggestions for fixing multiple tape devices

It probably also depends on the data recording itself. It seems different companies had different formats and standards for such cassette data recordings. It would make sense to research this side of it as well. Some recordings may be more demanding of the playback equipment than others, and in differing ways.

Without this information it's hard to give hard and fast rules as to standards and techniques of playback, but in the end, if the digital data transfers without error, it's a 100% successful transfer.

Last edited by TIMTAPE; 5th Dec 2019 at 1:19 am.
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