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Old 13th Aug 2022, 3:41 pm   #1
ScottishColin
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Default EPROM Programmer

Hi all. As part of my never ending quest to find out more, I'd like to look into buying an EPROM Programmer.

This will specifically be for my PET and 4040. Whilst I don't want to be paying hundreds of pounds, I recognise that you get what you pay for.

I've been chatting with Sirius and he recommends that I'm clear what it is I want to program, so I believe that I'm after something that at the very least will program TMS2532 EPROMs and Hitachi HN462532 EPROMs. I'd rather not be restricted to just them, but they're my minimum.

I also understand that I may well need a parallel port fitted PC as the USB powered devices seem to struggle with the voltages required for those EPROMs.

Anyway - I'd love a discussion please for what might be a suitable second hand or new device that will work for me.

Thanks.

Colin.
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Old 13th Aug 2022, 4:09 pm   #2
TonyDuell
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I seem to remember the chips you mention don't have the 'normal' pinouts like the 2732 which means some simpler programmers can't handle them.

Personally I'd look for a standalone unit with a hex keypad and display and a serial port. That way you can do EPROM copying etc without a PC on the bench. Most of these units will work fine with a USB-RS232 interface too.

I won't specifically recommend the unit I use for such things as it's so obscure I've never seen another one anywhere (OK, it's called 'Ferret'). For various reasons I normally transfer the data to/from an HP palmtop and then use kermit to transfer from there to/from a PC. The files are quite small so it doesn't take long.
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Old 13th Aug 2022, 5:25 pm   #3
Mark1960
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I bought a GQ-4X a couple of years ago as its supposed to be able to program 2732A type, but still not tried it on 2732A type yet. I read somewhere that it supports higher programming voltage than the more common usb programmers but may need external 5v psu.

According to the device list it supports TMS2532JL, 2532, and 2532A(READ ONLY)

https://www.mcumall.com/store/index....&product_id=40
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Old 13th Aug 2022, 11:21 pm   #4
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Strangely enough I have just been involved in another thread where the owner of one of those GQ-4X units was trying to use his to read a 2532 and it was discovered that his particular unit was not handling pin 18 and pin 21 properly (it was driving them as though the device selected was a 2732, not a 2532).

In the interests of science, Mark, would you mind setting yours to read a 2532, identify the socket pins on the 40/48 pin socket which would be occupied by pins 18 and 21 of a 24-pin EPROM and scope those pins while doing a 'read from'?

For a 2532, pin 21 should be held high for the duration of the read, and pin 18 (A11) should be held low for the first half of the read operation and high for the second half of the read operation.

Is that what yours does? Because in the case of the one referred to earlier, it was sending the hold-high signal to pin 18 and the A11 Lo-Hi signal to pin 21 - this would be correct for a 2732, not a 2532.

I mentioned to Colin that the current crop of sub-£100 USB connected programmers seem to struggle to generate the correct VPP voltage for the oldest (2716 / 2732 / 2532) devices, which is unlucky as this is exactly the device era he is most interested in.

I also said that programmers which come from the same era as the devices do a much better job of programming them provided the required devices are actually in the device support list, but that they unfortunately tended to be connected to the host computer via a parallel port and driven by DOS support software.

There are modern, capable USB connected device programmers (Your Datamans, Xeltec, Elnec, etc) but there is a huge difference in price - in the mid to high hundreds - between those and the TL866 or GQ-4X units.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 3:31 am   #5
Mark1960
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I’ll try and set it up to test that, maybe sometime next week.

Which of the three variants did you try?

Is there any way to configure the device in devices.txt?
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 8:51 am   #6
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I remember that c't magazine (German) had a project to build your own programmer which they called EPROP. Issues 1 and 2, 1990. Unfortunately not in the Internet Archive but maybe someone has a copy of the article. I built one and it worked quite well. It included an interface card for a PC which I think generated all the power it needed from the PC bus. I don't know where you'd get one now. You'd need the software for it as well.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 10:54 am   #7
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark1960 View Post
Which of the three variants did you try?
Is there any way to configure the device in devices.txt?
I'm afraid I have never seen one in the flesh so I know little about them, and nothing about the existence of a devices.txt. If the design of that programmer allows you to tinker with the device definitions that is a general point in its favour as professional programmers rarely allow you to do that.

I will trawl back through the thread in question, I know the owner/driver (In Italy) tried reading as both TMS2532 and Hitachi HN462532 which have the same oddball pinout, with the same lack of success.

On scoping pins 18 and 21 during read, it looked like the programmer was sending the A11 signal to pin 21- correct for a 2732 but not a 2532. We had him make an adaptor which swapped these pins over and then read the device as though it was a 2732.

I will try to pick out the specific chip details, if any, and get back to you.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 11:41 am   #8
ScottishColin
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Started my digging - there's a Stag PP39 on a popular on-line auction site. Anyone ever used one of them?

Colin.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 11:52 am   #9
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Frenchman Matthieu Benoit runs a kind of EPPROM programmer 'fan website' with a lot of useful resources. Everything you might ever want to know about or need for the PP39, and many other old programmers besides, is there.

http://matthieu.benoit.free.fr/Stag_PP39_programmer.htm

I note the presence of both Hitachi and Texas 2532 devices in the device support list so that's the first hurdle apparently cleared. It would be good if someone who already has one of these could confirm it though.

http://baddinsbits.altervista.org/files/stag/devsup.txt
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 12:24 pm   #10
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

It looks like someone has gone to a lot of trouble to reverse engineer the communications protocol between computer and STAG programmer so that they could write a version of the support software which can run on newer OSes. However I have no personal experience of this. It would do no harm to download the software and try running it on a suitable PC first, before going after the hardware.

http://baddinsbits.altervista.org/stagsoft.html

On initial investigation it appears that the PP39 has a serial (RS232) interface rather than a parallel one so there is some hope that it may work with a USB to serial converter lead if the host computer has no hardware serial ports. USB to parallel interfaces rarely if ever work with parallel port programmers because the programmers and support software expect that the parallel port will work at very high speed, whereas a USB to parallel converter lead will introduce delays during the transition from USB format to parallel format.

Last edited by SiriusHardware; 14th Aug 2022 at 12:49 pm.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 12:56 pm   #11
Phil__G
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Hi Colin, don't you fancy making a homebrew programmer? For single types it's quite simple. If you have a cmos 4040 address counter you only have to generate reset, clock, and programming pulses, I did one for the Eaca Genie back in the day, still have the Z80 assembler source which easily translates to whatever processor you choose, I did a MC6800 version too. One 8 bit output port for data and one for the control signals. Vpp comes from PP3 batteries in series via a jacked-up 78xx reg.
Just an idea
Cheers
Phil
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 2:01 pm   #12
ScottishColin
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I'd definitely be up for making one, but (as those who know me here know), I'm a bear of little brain regarding circuits and electronics. I will need help.

If a few of you are up for helping me out, I'm fine to give it a go.

As before, at a minimum, I want to be able to program TMS2532 EPROMs and Hitachi HN462532 EPROMs with all the voltage fun that comes with that.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G View Post
Hi Colin, don't you fancy making a homebrew programmer? For single types it's quite simple. If you have a cmos 4040 address counter you only have to generate reset, clock, and programming pulses, I did one for the Eaca Genie back in the day, still have the Z80 assembler source which easily translates to whatever processor you choose, I did a MC6800 version too. One 8 bit output port for data and one for the control signals. Vpp comes from PP3 batteries in series via a jacked-up 78xx reg.
Just an idea
Cheers
Phil
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 2:02 pm   #13
ScottishColin
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Yes - I saw that. A device that has some kind of community around it is a good place for me.

Colin.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
It looks like someone has gone to a lot of trouble to reverse engineer the communications protocol between computer and STAG programmer so that they could write a version of the support software which can run on newer OSes. However I have no personal experience of this. It would do no harm to download the software and try running it on a suitable PC first, before going after the hardware.

http://baddinsbits.altervista.org/stagsoft.html

On initial investigation it appears that the PP39 has a serial (RS232) interface rather than a parallel one so there is some hope that it may work with a USB to serial converter lead if the host computer has no hardware serial ports. USB to parallel interfaces rarely if ever work with parallel port programmers because the programmers and support software expect that the parallel port will work at very high speed, whereas a USB to parallel converter lead will introduce delays during the transition from USB format to parallel format.
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Old 14th Aug 2022, 2:20 pm   #14
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

If I'm looking at the same one as you it looks like that example handles up to 28 pin devices with the top plate that it has fitted - that would be fine for devices up to 27512, etc. I believe that top plate with the two sockets on it is removable and can be replaced with other plates which have different sockets on, but of course they would have been an (expensive) optional extra from STAG back in the day and would be hard to find now.

For the devices you want to be able to program it seems to be a tentative yes, as long as you can get the PC side infrastructure up and running.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 8:14 am   #15
Roger Ramjet
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Hi Colin,

I have an industrial type programmer that I "rescued", from the company I worked for at the time.

No way am I an expert on these but I recall it was used to copy and / or programme 32 Pin ? DIL chips for a burglar alarm panel.

It also comes with a UV Lamp kit.

At the mo it is in my loft but can dig out & take piccy's if needs be.

Happy to give away FOC noting the usual transport challenges given that it in a large suitcase.

Regards, Rog
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 8:38 am   #16
ScottishColin
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Roger - that's very kind of you. Would it be possible to let me know the make/model (photos would be great if that's possible) so I can see if it will handle the EPROMs I want to burn?

Thanks very much.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
Hi Colin,

I have an industrial type programmer that I "rescued", from the company I worked for at the time.

No way am I an expert on these but I recall it was used to copy and / or programme 32 Pin ? DIL chips for a burglar alarm panel.

It also comes with a UV Lamp kit.

At the mo it is in my loft but can dig out & take piccy's if needs be.

Happy to give away FOC noting the usual transport challenges given that it in a large suitcase.

Regards, Rog
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 1:13 pm   #17
Phil__G
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

To be honest, unless its a restoration where authenticity is essential, I'd make up some adapters for modern EEPROMs, say half an AT28C64B, so much easier!
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 1:26 pm   #18
SiriusHardware
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Colin currently doesn't have any sort of programmer at all, though, so programming mainstream devices to go into adaptors is not something he can currently do anyway.

It is true that the sub-£100 hobbyist programmers don't seem to mind programming anything a bit newer so yes, an alternative approach would be to get one of those and some adaptors to transform more modern devices into 6332 / 2332 / 2316 etc equivalents.

Devices in adaptors in sockets never look pretty, so I think Colin was hoping to use bare ICs which are pin-for-pin drop in replacements.
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 2:02 pm   #19
ScottishColin
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

I tried my best during the PET restoration to use replacements that at least looked the same, whilst acknowledging that they're more modern ICs. So I'm leaning towards wanting to continue that if possible.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Phil__G View Post
To be honest, unless its a restoration where authenticity is essential, I'd make up some adapters for modern EEPROMs, say half an AT28C64B, so much easier!
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Old 15th Aug 2022, 7:16 pm   #20
Roger Ramjet
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Default Re: EPROM Programmer

Quote:
Originally Posted by ScottishColin View Post
Roger - that's very kind of you. Would it be possible to let me know the make/model (photos would be great if that's possible) so I can see if it will handle the EPROMs I want to burn?

Thanks very much.

Colin.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Roger Ramjet View Post
Hi Colin,

I have an industrial type programmer that I "rescued", from the company I worked for at the time.

No way am I an expert on these but I recall it was used to copy and / or programme 32 Pin ? DIL chips for a burglar alarm panel.

It also comes with a UV Lamp kit.

At the mo it is in my loft but can dig out & take piccy's if needs be.

Happy to give away FOC noting the usual transport challenges given that it in a large suitcase.

Regards, Rog
Hi Colin, Just retried from loft .... surprised it did not melt in the heat of recent. Please see piccy's. I did promise the UV Lamp to Christian Fletcher but spotted a post noting he had obtained one from elsewhere. The unit was made in the USA & comes will all manuals & leads. Seriously heavy though so not ideal to post. Have some more piccy's if needs be, Rog
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