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Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 11:58 am   #21
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

It strikes me that if the Quad itch is that persistent, scratch it - it's a nice bit of kit, as is the matching FM3. And I don't suppose you'll lose anything if you do move it on. There are a couple of design funnies in the 303 - the supply caps could leak onto the circuit boards (they were later mounted the other way up to obviate this) and it's fussy about having original-spec (for which read slow) replacement output transistors should these fail. David (Radio Wrangler) has gone into this on another thread. However, as I have also argued elsewhere, these are but small blemishes on a vastly successful and durable design.

One amplifier of that period I've always wanted to fiddle with is the short-lived Lustraphone LP100, for which there was an even rarer matching tuner. To me it looked absolutely gorgeous, and it was sold on the basis of its slew rate, a then impressive 4V/uS. Sadly, it had a stabilty problem which gave it a voracious appetite for output devices, and the under-guarantee repairs bankrupted the company.

Castle speakers are pretty sound designs - the guiding light was John Collinson, who co-founded the company after working at Quad and Wharfedale. Incidentally, the receiver he designed for Wharfedale, the 100.1, is a nice bit of kit, if a little earlier than 1974.

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 24th Feb 2020 at 12:06 pm.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:15 pm   #22
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

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I currently own a 1974 LP12 which doesn't have any major upgrades.
Out of interest what cartridge/arm combination are you using? Also, are you satisfied that the LP12 is set up to perform at it's best? Providing that everything is satisfactory at the input end of things most post 1980 amplifiers of reasonable quality will do a decent job and it won't be easy to tell them apart in practice. Since you already have a competent amplifier with speakers to your taste I'd seriously question the premise of the proposition. If you're interested in listening to high quality vinyl reproduction I'd concentrate on the input end of things. A well worn phrase comes to mind; "rubbish in, rubbish out". If you're already happy with the set up why not spend the money on buying some more music to enjoy?

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:27 pm   #23
MickMoore
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

I believe the arm is a basik, not 100% on the cartridge. Photo's attached.

The LP12 itself I believe is pretty original. I know I could spend money upgrading this down the line but do like the idea of keeping it original.

The Vincent Amp/Pre-Amp I believe are very good, I guess I'm just interested to know if I can recreate the quality with older equipment. I had a couple of issues with Vincent and their supplier when the equipment was has left a scar so long term I'll be looking to replace anyway.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:49 pm   #24
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

If customer service looms large in your thinkng, consider that Quad stand almost alone in this respect. The cartridge looks lke an Ortofon VMS3 or similar. Basik(!) as the arm is, it could accomodate something more refined, like one of the more advanced VMS series styli.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 12:57 pm   #25
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

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I guess I'm just interested to know if I can recreate the quality with older equipment.
I think the simple answer is 'yes' but what's the point? The audio quality will always be limited to a degree by the budget Linn Basik LV-V arm. LP12s were originally supplied with a variety of cartridge/arm combinations depending largely on the size of the buyer's wallet at the time. By the way, I don't recognise the cartridge. Presumably it's a moving magnet type and is connected to the pre-amp's corresponding MM input?

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:02 pm   #26
MickMoore
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Maybe selling the Vincent gear to fund multiple vintage purchases?! lol.

I will be getting the LP12 checked over in the coming months so definitely considering a possible arm/cart upgrade.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:04 pm   #27
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

The 33/303/FM3 set has become a design classic. They work pretty well and they still look special.

They were the first transistor amplifiers that really took off, accepted as proper hifi equipment. There are a few things in them which could have been done better, but that may be hindsight 2020 vision talking. If you feel the urge, you have to get some, else you'll forever have an unscratchable itch.

Having a nicely restored 33/303 is a bit like having an E-type in the garage. It was quite a mould breaker when it came out. Cars have got faster, but speed limits haven't. Amplifiers have gone up in performance, but hearing hasn't. It all comes down to whether differences are perceptible in use.

The 303 was also designed to drive ESL57s. ELS57? ESLS57!

I think the 44 is a nicer preamp, the 405 is a bit oddball, but they sound OK so this would be a viable alternative. Quad amps in need of a bit of TLC are affordable, and if you do the TLC, you can be sure it's been done right.

I'm an electronics designer by profession and we're an arrogant bunch at best, so I designed my own amplifiers as a matter of principle and went over the top simply because I could. They've been sitting in my lounge for the past 40 years, so I guess that makes them vintage now. They simply work better than I need them to, and that frees me to get on with other things. I couldn't for a moment defend the lengths I went to in them, so though a number of them were made at HP, they've never been a commercial product.

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 1:11 pm   #28
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I'd love to try those ESL57's, maybe not just yet, will try and get to hear a pair.

Looking at the 33/303, I see the newer amps as well but agree this combo looks ideal. If I did buy a set that needed servicing are there plenty of folk that can do this and is it expensive?
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 3:45 pm   #29
Ted Kendall
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I don't think you'll have trouble finding somebody to service Quad electronics. Quad themselves still offer support. Some suppliers offer "improvements" of one kind or another, but these I should treat with caution.

The original Quad electrostatic is almost sui generis - it has a particular combination of virtues which causes its devotees to overlook its drawbacks - fussiness about room placement, limited power output and "lack of bass", some of which is actual, caused by the finite size of the speaker, but mostly a consequence of low colouration and overhang. When real bass is there in the signal, it is reproduced - not to the gut-wrenching depths possible with transmission lines, but very well nevertheless.

Support of the original electrostatic has passed to third parties - One Thing Audio and Quad Musikwiedergabe GmbH (who bought the tooling from Quad) are worth investigating.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 3:55 pm   #30
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

Servicing of vintage hifi does tend to be pricey though, so you will need to prepare yourself for that if you don't intend to do any work yourself.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 5:08 pm   #31
MickMoore
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OK, going for the Quad 33/303, just sifting through ads to find what I hope will be a good one

Speakers, I think I'll have a go with the Celestion DL4's I found as they seem great value and in superb condition. I'm also going to look at more premium options in the very near future and will check out the BC1's and other suggestions.

I can 'handle' a soldering iron but might be best left to the professionals unless it's just a matter of replacing components ;-)

Would someone be kind enough to explain the 2 card slots on the back of the Quad amp please? I'm going to be using with a turntable only for the time being.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 5:36 pm   #32
Ted Kendall
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BC1s are excellent speakers in good condition and would suit the 303 well. Contemporaneous, too - first introduced in 1969 and continued in production for nigh on twenty years.

The card slots in the back of the 33 set the sensitivities of the pickup and tape inputs - one for each. The PU card has four connector faces which are inserted to give the required characteristic. Thus the pickup card has M1, M2, CER and a fourth which is left blank for individual requirements. For a magnetic pickup, you use M1 or M2, depending on sensitivity you require - whichever gives a comfortable listening level at about 6 on the volume knob is the one to use. I'd guess at M1.

The tape card allows you to set levels to suit the tape machine in use by moving screws from hole to hole - simple and effective.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 5:40 pm   #33
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Thanks for the explanation Ted, much appreciated, lots to learn. I assume these are therefore essential? Seen a couple that have both cards so sound ideal.

Really like the look of the BC1's, couple of good buys around for collection. Might need to be the 'next step' but we'll see. Also looking at a new cartridge for the LP12.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 5:52 pm   #34
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Yes, the cards are essential for correct operation.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 6:08 pm   #35
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Also looking at a new cartridge for the LP12.
Worth looking at the whole picture here. If, for example, you wanted to try a low output moving coil cartridge the Quad 33 doesn't have a suitable input as standard. Also, you'd really need to upgrade the arm. As I mentioned earlier it's worth expending some time thinking about the source if you are looking for high quality audio reproduction using vinyl.

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Old 24th Feb 2020, 6:10 pm   #36
MickMoore
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Thank you Alan TBH I've always been very impressed with the LP12 setup as is but I'm sure if I heard a much better cartridge I'd maybe sway. I have been considering a moving coil cart as this would appear to be an obvious upgrade at this stage.
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 8:34 pm   #37
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

The fitting of a moving coil cartridge to the earlier Linn arms is something I have been mulling over recently.
I think the arm you have is a Basik LVV ? The next level would be the Basik LVX (removable headshell). Next level Basik Plus (fixed headshell).
I am currently led to believe thet the Basik Plus arm can possibly accept some MC cartridges, and that it would be inadvisable to fit an MC cartridge to anything earlier than this. Issues relating to arm mass and compliance ?
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Old 24th Feb 2020, 10:28 pm   #38
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Default Re: LP12 Turntable - Vintage Amp Options

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The fitting of a moving coil cartridge to the earlier Linn arms is something I have been mulling over recently.
I think the arm you have is a Basik LVV ? The next level would be the Basik LVX (removable headshell). Next level Basik Plus (fixed headshell).
I am currently led to believe thet the Basik Plus arm can possibly accept some MC cartridges, and that it would be inadvisable to fit an MC cartridge to anything earlier than this. Issues relating to arm mass and compliance ?
My LP12, of 1985 vintage is fitted with a Basik Plus arm and plays very well with an Ortofon MC25 FL moving coil cartridge. I found that some mechanical damping (careful application of Blu Tack) improved the sound, removing the slight metallic ‘ring’ that was otherwise present, originating I guess in the metal head shell. Of course, that coloration may have originally been part of the magical ‘Rhythmic’ character of the Linn, but I prefer the sound without it.

So, in summary, yes my Basik Plus arm works very well with a moving coil cartridge. The proof of the pudding is that the sound of a disc is, to my ears, virtually indistinguishable from that of its CD version. Technically, measuring the overall response from a frequency sweep test disc to speaker terminals, it’s within 1 dB up to 18 kHz, though I guess that Linn afficianados might be inclined to dismiss such crude objective measurements.

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Old 25th Feb 2020, 9:59 am   #39
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You measured at the speaker terminals, Martin? That means your turntable, arm, cartridge, cables and amplifier are all b*ggered.... they've been measured! they'll never sound right again to a true aficionado. You'll have to throw them all away and replace them.

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Old 25th Feb 2020, 2:01 pm   #40
MickMoore
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Scratch is getting itched, just secured a Quad 33/303, both cards in the back, all cables. Doesn't sound like it's been serviced recently but appears to have been very well looked after. I'll see how I get on with it and look towards a service when I can.

Seller also has ESL's but won't part with them! So trying a couple of cheaper vintage alternatives for the time being.

Appreciate the comments that the Quad won't support a moving coil cartridge so again I'll look at this in the near future.
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