Medium wave dying?

[Brigham]

People who listen to the radio may be dying-off, but people who have the radio on as a source of background noise seem to be alive and well.
As for MW, there's virtually nothing on any of the broadcast bands that I'd want to listen to on a vintage set. The only regular listening I did was as a teenager, when I made sure of listening-in to Alan Dell's 'Dance Band Days'.
Did 405-line enthusiasm die out when broadcasts stopped? I watch the Wimbledon tennis championships every year on 405, for historical reasons. Afterwards, I send my licence back. Similarly, I don't tend to drive a pre-war car on roads not shown on a pre-war road map.
In my view, MW broadcasts are useful to find if an old set is working. Then, I can start to use it!

[Paul Stenning]

Many people now probably just use radio as background noise rather than actually listening.

Many building sites and car workshops etc will have a radio blaring and nobody taking much notice of it. Many car drivers probably have the radio on too.

I normally have the radio on, tuned to Wave 105 (FM) or Gold (DAB) while working, but if you asked me what the last song played was I probably couldn't tell you. It fills the silence, and I seem to be more productive with it on. I could play MP3s or CDs, but then I'd have to make a conscious choice and feel obliged to pay it a bit more attention.

[Hybrid tellies]

Re post 57. There are various sites which use the vertical mast as a MF radiator with the FM aerials affixed to the top of the mast.
At the Naish Hill site in west Wiltshire Smooth is transmitted on 936Khz MW, from the top FM aerials Heart on 102.20Mhz and BBC R Wiltshire on 104.30Mhz are radiated. There are similar combined MF/VHF masts at Blunsdon near Swindon, Vicars Lot near Huddersfield and Christchurch near Newport, south Wales.
Personally I still listen to AM radio for Radi o4 and the world service on 198Khz, BBC R5L for sport events on either 909 or 693Khz as both are strong here and Absolute on 1215Khz which on some of my radios sounds better on AM than it does on DAB. I can also listen to Smooth on various frequencies with 936Khz from Naish Hill being the most reliable.

[greenstar]

I am a definite internet freak, I love the instructional videos and have hardly touched internet radio yet. Rebroadcasting with a pantry transmitter is an interesting idea.
The thing I have always loved about the radio though is that it's minimal. To start with, it's sound without vision, not like the telly. I never minded not having a lot of 'choice' as I always find things I like, and don't want to listen all the time. I find when there is a lot of 'choice' the amount I want to listen to seems to be less, as I found watching Freeview on the TV - I gave up my licence at that point - and I have the computer, just avoid the BBC, and don't want to buy Sky, etc.
I find BBC radio like going to a small old fashioned town and finding a good little shop - intelligently run, good stock, lots of useful things. And that ethos comes from the many years on AM. Go to a city and there seems to me a bewildering amount of things I don't want and little I do. That is more like DAB. Are we seeing this coming to radio broadcasting?
We don't always need more choice. We also need a concept of quality, and increasing quantity often goes with it's loss. BBC radio has always in my view been outstanding in striking a balance, but I think that whole idea under threat.
So it's not just AM that could be lost.

[crusher19860138]

Originally Posted by Hybrid tellies

I miss the strong AM signals from the local Mangotsfield transmitter especially Radio Bristol on 1548Khz. But I still get very good reception from the Washford transmitter which is the home of Radio Wales on 882Khz, Absolute on 1215Khz and Talk Sport on 1089Khz, the Clevedon transmitter for BBC R5L on 909 and Droitwich for BBC R4 198Khz and BBC R5L on 693Khz. All these signals are strong and easily punch through the high levels of RFI.
I feel that unless we can get to grips with the ever increasing levels of RFI then the future for Long and Medium wave AM radio is bleak.

I was surprised Mangotsfield was closed down,the reasons given pretty weak ones,iam sure another site could have been found,i believe Clevedon was originally used for BBC Radio Bristol MW,so could have been used again,that said,MW set up technology is cheap in comparison with DAB set up costs,and i wonder if the Mangotsfield switch off is really an experiment to see the effect of the switch off,and how any future switch offs of AM are handled.

[bikerhifinut]

Originally Posted by greenstar

I am a definite internet freak, I love the instructional videos and have hardly touched internet radio yet. Rebroadcasting with a pantry transmitter is an interesting idea.
The thing I have always loved about the radio though is that it's minimal. To start with, it's sound without vision, not like the telly. I never minded not having a lot of 'choice' as I always find things I like, and don't want to listen all the time. I find when there is a lot of 'choice' the amount I want to listen to seems to be less, as I found watching Freeview on the TV - I gave up my licence at that point - and I have the computer, just avoid the BBC, and don't want to buy Sky, etc.
I find BBC radio like going to a small old fashioned town and finding a good little shop - intelligently run, good stock, lots of useful things. And that ethos comes from the many years on AM. Go to a city and there seems to me a bewildering amount of things I don't want and little I do. That is more like DAB. Are we seeing this coming to radio broadcasting?
We don't always need more choice. We also need a concept of quality, and increasing quantity often goes with it's loss. BBC radio has always in my view been outstanding in striking a balance, but I think that whole idea under threat.
So it's not just AM that could be lost.

Nicely put greenstar!

I have become increasingly partial to the local BBC station which apart from one particularly annoying presenter during the daylight hours ( won't say who in case I get sued!) I like listening to especially when I just want a bit of "ear candy". As I remarked earlier in this thread, FM reception in our current location on the west side of the Eden valley is poor to non existent and thus the MW broadcasts are very welcome, especially when driving in and out of shadow areas, I have found even around penrith itself the FM signal disappears and so the car radio tends to stay switched to MW.

A.

[G6Tanuki]

I think a big issue here is marketing. If a new station were to start up on MW/LW (or FM for that matter) how would you get to hear about it?

Truth is, you probably wouldn't. So you wouldn't listen. Nobody these days goes tuning round the wavebands like they used to, so the chance of people randomly bumping into a new station is essentially zero.

Hence, without authenticatable listener numbers you're not attractive to advertisers and so there's no income to pay for the running-costs (power, equipment, royalty payments to the Performing Right Society for the music you play etc) and you go bust.

Not having a MW-band on tablets or smartphones (which is how a good slice of people 'listen to radio' this decade) is another big impediment.

Alas we won't see the big-listenership 1960s pirate-stations on MW again, and I suspect the FM free-radio scene peaked sometime around 2000 too.

[ms660]

It'll all be internet in a few years time, over the air broadcasting as we know it will be no more.

Lawrence.

[PsychMan]

That's why I think DAB is dead in the water, always has been. By the time the majority of listeners have moved away from FM, internet based radio will be a far better option.

But, it does have latency and buffering issues. Would someone for example want to hear the new year countdown via internet radio, and hear big ben 8 seconds behind the real event?

Also, Im no expert on streaming technology, but would there not be contention problems if all drivers in a given area are streaming 4G, receiving slightly different packets served to them on an individual basis? Imagine a lot of wifi users in one area for example, that slows down the speed for all using it. Not the most eloquent way to explain it!

[G6Tanuki]

Originally Posted by PsychMan

Also, Im no expert on streaming technology, but would there not be contention problems if all drivers in a given area are streaming 4G, receiving slightly different packets served to them on an individual basis? Imagine a lot of wifi users in one area for example, that slows down the speed for all using it. Not the most eloquent way to explain it!

The "one source multiple recipients" issue is already well-addressed in the Internet world - it's called "Multicast".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IP_multicast

which dates back to 1986. In the wired-Internet world I regularly used the methodology to deliver live HD [1080p] video from a single point [a surgeon in an operating-theatre] to multiple recipients [medical-school students at universities and colleges across the UK].

Of course this doesn't work in the desired futurescape when everyone is listening to their own streaming-source-of-choice.

[Junk Box Nick]

Originally Posted by G6Tanuki

I think a big issue here is marketing. If a new station were to start up on MW/LW (or FM for that matter) how would you get to hear about it?

You hear about it through PR campaigns. This is how a lot of stuff gets into the news media. Then it's word of mouth (social media these days so even quicker) viral marketing and the rest.

Radio Caroline and Radio London got about 8 million listeners each in the 1960s because the only daytime competition was the Light Programme and that didn't play non-stop pop all day. When the only other broadcast advertising opportunities were one ITV channel and Radio Luxembourg - both only on in the evenings - the market was wide open for listeners and advertisers. Thus it was possible fit out a ship, fuel it and crew it from advertising income alone.

Initially, the GPO wouldn't list the Caroline telephone number in the directory and as an 'unauthorised broadcast' it was probably illegal to listen to pirates under the Wireless Telegraphy Act 1949. Somehow word got around!

Radio 2 has about 15m listeners, Radio 4 11m, Radio 1 10m and Classic FM 5m. The biggest commercial would seem to be Heart at 9m. Like a lot of things it's become polarised. Once local commercial stations have been swallowed into pseudo-national stations through networking (and the help of DAB) to deliver bigger audiences to advertisers. Smooth took over the Jazz FM frequency in London and the Saga FM frequencies in the east and west midlands. These days if you are a local commercial you are more than likely operating on a shoe-string.

Radio doesn't need an internet connection - all you need is a battery or mains socket for the set - it is easy. I don't think radio is anything like dead yet.

[IanBland]

I agree with PsychMan about DAB. It's always been a solution in search of a problem.

[greenstar]

Of course radio through the internet is not radio, as it has a video component, like listening to the radio on your telly. I guess it will all be on our smartphones. Everyone will have to have a smartphone to make payments, operate various devices, connect with work, etc, and we'll end up with them plugged into our brains. A bit like Unk in Kurt Vonnigut's Sirens of Titan. But if we follow this line radio as a concept will no longer exist.

[IanBland]

I think a lot of separate technologies are going to cease to exist. I was thinking about this over the past few days. I work on the helpdesk for (a well-known smartcard application) and the company apparently has plans to dominate the smartcard market. The problem I see with this is that they are a doomed technology. Because it will shift onto smartphones, like pretty much everything else.

I'm not a huge fan of this (I don't even own a smartphone, my mobile is an old Nokia which is a phone rather than a computer with a phone "app") but it seems inevitable; the "smartphone" is really a pocket computer with communications abilities, and is destined to become basically what I would call a Universal Interface Device, which will connect to and control anything, make payments (replacing bank and credit cards) and so on.

Said payment systems will thus be managed by a few central helpdesks, tied to the platforms (e.g. ApplePay) and my employer and job will cease to exist.

So back with the topic, I can't see any future for distinct technologies like radio and television. Just EOIP (Everything Over IP, heh). It's not a future that makes me feel very comfortable, especially due to my libertarian/privacy instincts (nobody knows you're listening to Medium Wave, since the listening device is, as regards the network, passive) but every data packet sent to your UID is logged somewhere. But it seems inevitable.

[greenstar]

Unless we can see it as an art form, which radio is at its best, like black and white photography or sculpture. You can make art digitally, but it's nice to have some things concrete. I guess that's a niche. And as has been mentioned there's the concept of a fallback technology should things fail, which is woefully lacking in government planning.

the concept of a fallback technology should things fail, which is woefully lacking in government planning

I have heard the 198kHz will be kept working for an emergency. I have various amateur battery powered sets (kept charged) just in case...

[Biggles]

Regarding AM transmission quality, I personally find that it isn't all that important. Why is everyone obsessed with HiFi performance? Granted I am not your average listener, because I listen to the radio as a technical enthusiast as opposed to a member of the general public. During the day my radio contact ranges from digital two way radios, analogue HF comms through to FM broadcast (we can't receive DAB here). As long as I can understand what is being transmitted I am happy. That unfortunately is not how the general public see it. The radio is always on in the workshop at home and at work, also in the car. It's probably a sort of background fill-in or to provide company sort of thing if I am honest. If I wanted HiFi quality then I would switch my AM radio off and listen to a decent CD instead. For the first time in my life I went to see a live orchestra the other night. Now classical music is not really my thing, but I went along with an open mind and the first thing that struck me was how pure and totally natural the instruments sounded. The quality from live instruments with no amplification whatsoever was astounding. I could immediately see what the attraction was. But at the end of the day, the fading, phasing and low bandwidth of AM radio is all part of the experience, and I am happy with it.

[IanBland]

Merlinmaxwell,

It's no use having an emergency frequency if nobody has the receiving equipment though

This may become a significant issue with the loss of both analogue low-tech radio, and landline analogue telephone technology.

I did have my wiggly thing stuck into the bulgy thing of my mouth. Never the less amateurs will have their day if it come to it (I do hope not).

[AnalogueMatty]

I regularly listen to MW radio, especially since my Wolseley only has an AM radio fitted. I've found that I can tune into BBC Scotland when driving to the Welsh borders, and BBC Wales when driving to Scotland ! I too like the warm sound from MW broadcasts, and will be devastated if / when the analogue transmitters are switched off , because I loathe digital radio, my dad has one and the signal strength frequently drops leading to garbling or total loss of programme. Plus my ears are still analogue !