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Old 27th Apr 2017, 9:37 am   #21
mking007
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

@SiriusHardware I did this test before I saw your comprehensive post above. I'll step through that now
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 9:45 am   #22
vidjoman
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

"Thin red wire from arm = left channel signal from cartridge.
Thin green wire from arm = left ground from cartridge.

Thin white wire from arm = right channel signal from cartridge.
Thin blue wire from arm = right ground from cartridge."

These are the wrong way round to the normal convention of PU wiring.

The RED/Green should be the RIGHT chan and the WHITE/blue the LEFT.

Not that it will affect the problem you have.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:31 am   #23
mking007
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
The following suggestions are based on the assumption that red usually equals right and white usually equals left. I'm also assuming that the plugs on the amp end of your audio output lead are coloured red, and either (white, or black).
The player goes to a 5 pin DIN cable (I believe) which I've connected to a converted to phono. Photos attached

Quote:
For now, leave the headshell unfitted.
Done

Quote:
With your meter (which I assume is digital?) set to buzzer / continuity, first check that the meter is really in the right mode. Touch the probes together, it should buzz or beep.
Yes it's digital. Yes it beeps on connection.

Quote:
Tag connection with thin red / thick red wires on it
Centre pin of red phono plug at the amp end of the audio output lead
(Should buzz).
No buzz from the centre pin of the red phono plug.
Also, no buzz from the white centre pin or either outer casing.
Also, no buzz from any of the 5 DIN pins when I removed that connection

Broken wire in the cable?

Quote:
Second check
Tag connection with thin green wire / cable screen on it
Outer ring of red phono plug at the amp end of the audio output lead
(Should buzz).
Yes, it buzzes
Note: it also buzzes (but with jumps) for the outer casing of the white wire. Does not buzz for either inner pin

Quote:
Third check
Tag with thin white wire / thick white wire on it to
Centre pin of white (or black) phono plug on amp end of audio cable.
(Should buzz).
No buzz.
Also nothing from the red inner or either outer part.

Quote:
Fourth check
Tag with thin blue wire / cable screen on it to
Outer ring of white (or black) phono plug on amp end of cable.
(Should buzz).
Buzzes.
Also buzzes for outer ring of red cable.
Does not buzz for either inner connector.

Quote:
The next two checks assume that the headshell / cartridge are NOT fitted. This is a check for unwanted signal-to-ground shorts on both the output wiring and the arm wiring.

Fifth check
Tag with thin red wire / thick red wire on it to
Tag with thin green wire / cable screen on it - should not buzz
Headshell / cartridge is not fitted
no buzz

Quote:
Sixth check
Tag with thin white wire / thick white wire on it to
Tag with thin blue wire / cable screen on it - should not buzz.
No buzz

Quote:
Let us know if all those checks pass, and we'll continue with checks on the wiring from the end of the arm to the tagstrip.

Could we have some closer shots, one looking into the socket receptacle on the arm, and one or more close ups of the current wiring between the cartridge and the headshell?
2 pics attached. Hopefully I've got a helpful view....?

Thanks again for all of the help
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 7:41 pm   #24
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by vidjoman View Post
"Thin red wire from arm = left channel signal from cartridge.
Thin green wire from arm = left ground from cartridge.

Thin white wire from arm = right channel signal from cartridge.
Thin blue wire from arm = right ground from cartridge."

These are the wrong way round to the normal convention of PU wiring.

The RED/Green should be the RIGHT chan and the WHITE/blue the LEFT.

Not that it will affect the problem you have.
Agreed, I managed to write those backwards. Not sure how, because I said myself (in an earlier post) that red was assumed to be right and white (or black) to be left.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 9:41 pm   #25
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Mking007,

The presence of the DIN connectors in the middle of the audio output lead is a bit of a surprise / revelation. (You didn't mention that before).

With no through connection from the signal wires on the tag strips to the centre poles on the phono plugs, it sounds as though you have a cable fault or as though the wiring of the phono plugs to the flying DIN socket does not match the wiring in the DIN plug on the end of your player's lead.

Can you just clarify -

With one test lead on the tag with the thin red/thick red wires on it, touch the other probe to each of the pins of the DIN (male) plug in turn. Do you get a buzz on any of them? Which one?

And-

With one probe on the tag with the thin white / thick white wire on it, take the other probe to each pin of the DIN (male) plug in turn. Do you get a buzz from any of them? Which one?

Finally: With one probe on the tag with the thin green wire / cable screen going to it, take the other probe to each of the pins on the DIN (male) plug. Do you get a buzz from one or more of them? Which one(s)?
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 10:00 pm   #26
mking007
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

@SiriusHardware

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
The presence of the DIN connectors in the middle of the audio output lead is a bit of a surprise / revelation. (You didn't mention that before).
My mistake. Sorry. The player has always had this same speaker cable (DIN) from new.
The adapter cable to phono did used to work with the same amp and speakers I've got now. I think for several years it might have only worked to one speaker though. Now it works to none.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Can you just clarify -

With one test lead on the tag with the thin red/thick red wires on it, touch the other probe to each of the pins of the DIN (male) plug in turn. Do you get a buzz on any of them? Which one?
No buzz on any of the DIN pins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
And-

With one probe on the tag with the thin white / thick white wire on it, take the other probe to each pin of the DIN (male) plug in turn. Do you get a buzz from any of them? Which one?
No buzz on any of the DIN pins.

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Finally: With one probe on the tag with the thin green wire / cable screen going to it, take the other probe to each of the pins on the DIN (male) plug. Do you get a buzz from one or more of them? Which one(s)?
Yes, I get a buzz on the 3rd pin - the middle one.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:14 pm   #27
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

OK - do you see the outer cover on the DIN (male) plug? That looks to be removable. The little 'flap' with the C-shaped 'cut' around it in the outer cover serves as a kind of 'catch' which normally stops the cover from sliding down back over the cable.

if you use something thin to lever it outwards a little and at the same time, pull the cover back away over the cable - it's a bit of a three handed job so an assistant may come in handy - you should be able to slide the cover smoothly away off the plug body and back up over the cable.

The plug itself is usually protected by two 'U' section metal half cylinders which together form a whole cylinder. One may be attached to the cable by a rear section folded around the cable to form a cord grip. The other should be removable to allow visual access to the rear (wiring) side of the inside of the plug.

Have a look, what do you see? Either the white / red wires have come off inside the plug (in which case you can have a go to re-solder them) or they have snapped somewhere inside the cable. In that case, you'll need to replace the cable completely.

If you have to do that, you may as well remove the existing audio cable at the tagstrip, buy a twin-phono to twin-phono audio lead long enough to go from the player to the amp, cut the plugs off one end, thread that end from outside to inside the player through the hole used by the original cable and solder it to the tagstrip.
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Old 27th Apr 2017, 11:43 pm   #28
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

I think we've (you've !!) found the problem!


The 2 wires are disconnected from the terminals.

Photo attached but not sure it's visible.

I'll strip the cable back a bit and re-solder it tomorrow.

I'll google a cable diagram for which cable to which DIN pin.

Will mail more tomorrow. Hopefully to say that it's working again
Thanks very much SiriusHardware
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 12:39 am   #29
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

From the way those snapped cables are positioned, I would say this is how they went - see attached image below. Plug shown from the rear / wiring side.

Pins 1 and 4 clearly haven't ever had anything soldered to them: Pins 5 and 3 have.

A word of warning: If you heat the plug pins too much / for too long the plastic will soften and the pins will wander off and end up all pointing in different directions.

One way to make this less likely to happen is to plug the plug into a spare DIN socket before you start soldering. The socket will help to keep the pins steady and straight if you do overheat them a little.

Good luck!
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 8:57 am   #30
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

That connection looks logical to me. Pin 3 (Left), pin 5 (Right), and pin 2 (Screens of audio cables) were the standard DIN 'Audio Out') connections, whislt pin 4 (Right) & pin 1 (Left) performed the corresponding input functions, and were used on tape recorders. Resolder the connections carefully, then use a DIN socket to 2 RCA plugs, making sure that the socket is wired using Pins 2, 3 & 5 as above. You could, of course, simply remove the DIN plug altogether, and solder two RCA plugs to the leads instead. This would avoid any problems with adaptors. It depends on (a) whether the turntable is ever going to be used wit DIN equipped amplfiers or receivers, and (B) how concerned you are with keeping things original.
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 10:32 am   #31
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

This is very good advice. Adaptors and/or uneccessary interconnects interfere with the signal path.
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 3:10 pm   #32
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

If you read back through, this split lead including the DIN joint is the one which the player has always had, presumably so that it could be used with amps having either DIN or phono inputs.
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 9:35 pm   #33
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

She is alive!!!
Thanks very much to all and especially SiriusHardware
Soldering was a bit messy. I decided to keep the DIN connection and used my existing DIN to RCA adapter.
I've got music coming from both speakers and switching the balance works correctly.

So happy days!

While I'm on a roll though... I'm wondering if I can fix a buzzing that's coming from it? There is a buzzing from the speakers when it's switched to phono with the record player plugged in but not playing music. No other inputs give a buzz from the speakers. If I touch the arm then the buzz changes tone.

So I'm guessing this is a grounding problem?

Any advice on chasing this down appreciated. For now though I'm going to enjoy some old records for a bit!

Thanks again
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Old 28th Apr 2017, 10:02 pm   #34
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

It's usual for record decks to have an extra wire which goes from the arm metalwork to an earth terminal which most amplifiers have near their input connectors. This is one thing that the DIN adaptors or DIN input amplifiers missed out on.

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Old 29th Apr 2017, 1:45 am   #35
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Glad to hear you have your sound back.

As to the hum, maybe the first, least complex thing to try is just to reposition the deck in a few different places from where you have it now - not necessarily where you would really prefer it to be - just to see if that makes the loudness of the hum change. If it's on top of, or close by some other item of mains powered equipment it may be picking up hum radiated by the power transformer in that equipment.

Looking at your photos the deck seems to have a two-core mains lead, brown and blue wires only with no earth, is that how it is?
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Old 29th Apr 2017, 9:07 am   #36
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

From the photos it looks as though they have used the shell of the DIN plug/socket to act as the path for the metalwork earth from the TT to the amp. This is the thin single wire. Check the continuity through the plug and ensure it is connected at the amp end.
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Old 29th Apr 2017, 9:41 am   #37
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Given that you are using an adaptor, the quick fix would be to take the lead now on the shell to pin 2 of the Din, where the rest of the screens are.

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 29th Apr 2017 at 10:00 am.
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Old 29th Apr 2017, 7:18 pm   #38
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

Quote:
Originally Posted by SiriusHardware View Post
Glad to hear you have your sound back.


Quote:
As to the hum, maybe the first, least complex thing to try is just to reposition the deck in a few different places from where you have it now - not necessarily where you would really prefer it to be - just to see if that makes the loudness of the hum change. If it's on top of, or close by some other item of mains powered equipment it may be picking up hum radiated by the power transformer in that equipment.
I've moved it away but the buzz persists.

I have unplugged the turntable from the mains and I still get the buzz.

If I touch the arm (with it unplugged from the mains) I can change the tone of the buzz. Taking my finger off returns it to the original buzz.

Quote:
Looking at your photos the deck seems to have a two-core mains lead, brown and blue wires only with no earth, is that how it is?
That seems to be the way it is. Just opened the plug and yes, there's no earth. That plug has probably not been opened for 30 years...!
Photo attached.

Also, FWIW, I've attached a photo of the RCA adapter cable I've got, which does have an earthing attachment of sorts to clip to my amp, but this seems to make no difference.
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Old 29th Apr 2017, 8:46 pm   #39
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

A lot of hifi gear was double insulated, with no earth. It's how they allowed all sorts of stuff to be connected together without trouble (hum) fro earth loops.

However, turntables with magnetic cartridges supply such low signal voltage that they are sensitive to capacitive pick-up, and so an arm ground wire to the amplifier was used in addition to the two coax connections.

Touching the arm and changing the buzz is a definite sign that the arm-to-amplifier ground connection isn't good.

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Old 29th Apr 2017, 10:58 pm   #40
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Default Re: Rotel RP-5300 - no sound

I can't say I've ever come across a HiFi Turntable with a 3-core mains lead. The flying lead on that RCA/DIN adaptor cable must be connected to the earth terminal on your amplifier. Then, as long as the metal shell of the DIN socket on the Rotel is earthed, you should have no problem with hum or noisee pickup. With all due respect to Ted Kendall, I would leave the earth lead connected to the outer shell of the plug & socket. Sometimes, perhaps unlikely in the case of the RP-5300, chassis ground and signal ground are separated. This may be the case in your amplifier.
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