Pye Radiogram - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

loughrans · 27th Apr 2017, 3:43 pm

Hi
Haven't looked at many radiograms before, jukeboxes is usually my thing. I have a Pye radiogram, no model number, radio is working but problems with the turntable. The turntable turn tone arm will just rise and lower and not advance to the record and then turntable switches off. I removed the assembly to get a better look at the mechanics underneath and lubricated. I cycled the cam manually and I can see the mechanism being released, if you look at the attached doc where my finger is pointing to it explains it better, I don't know the names for the various bits and pieces of levers but in the picture if you can see the rectangular lever which is linked with the lever the holds the record in place on the top of the turntable, as I cycle the cam it prevents the tone arm from unlocking as follows... during the cam cycling it moves back and locks the tone arm up. If I stop it from moving back the tone arm will advance and come back as I manually cycle it. The only problem then is the tone arm will be floating and not locked back into position after a record has been played. If anyone could point me in the right direction or am I missing something
regards
sean

Edward Huggins · 27th Apr 2017, 4:30 pm

Welcome. It would really help if you could identify the Pye Model number or the Model of the turntable. From the mechanics, it looks like a Garrard but need more info. Tone arms do not normally "lock back" after a playing session unless you do this manually.

loughrans · 27th Apr 2017, 5:54 pm

Hi
The record turntable is a Garrard RC80M automatic record changer. From the photo in the previous post the latch with the notch at the end of it lifts at the start of the cycle but is pushed back down by the rectangular linkage (also in the photo) and prevents the tone arm going any further can't go any further
regards
Sean

electrogram · 27th Apr 2017, 6:24 pm

Looks like an RC75. Possibly stating the obvious but if the sensing finger does not detect a record loaded on the platform/spindle, it will do as you describe.

loughrans · 27th Apr 2017, 6:57 pm

Hi
Is the sensing finger the piece on the turntable to hold record in place

Records · 27th Apr 2017, 9:38 pm

No, look at the metal turret that the arm that holds the record stack in place comes out of, below it there should be a piece of shaped metal stuck out, or maybe in your case you can't see it, but you should see a slot where it should come out of.

This picture shows the arm.

electrogram · 27th Apr 2017, 10:45 pm

The sensing finger is the smaller chrome plated arm above the tonearm.when you start the changer it moves across to detect if any records are loaded. If there aren't any the deck will switch off with the tonearm locked.

RojDW48 · 27th Apr 2017, 11:31 pm

I had a Collaro deck years ago which confused me in a similar way, but it used the tonearm to sense the presence and diameter of a record. So far as I know Garrard always used a separate swinging arm to do the same job at that time.

loughrans · 27th Apr 2017, 11:59 pm

Hi
Thanks for the replies, yes I see what you mean, it was obvious, I just thought that a record could be loaded onto the turntable by hand straight onto the turntable and played, I had forgotten how old turntables operate. So now the tone arm will drop onto the record but sure enough it drops for a second or two and rejects and switches off. I assume the trip for the mechanism is the piece in the attached photo, what way can this be adjusted or is there anything missing form the piece, thanks again
Sean

'LIVEWIRE?' · 28th Apr 2017, 9:02 am

Just an observation - the picture in post # 6 is of a BSR UA8. Garrard decks worked on a simiklar principle, though, as did one Collaro player. As to the problem with your RC75, maybe a member familiar with this deck (which I'm not) can help you, but generally speaking, many problems with old autochangers are caused by dried out grease.

electrogram · 28th Apr 2017, 11:52 am

The part that looks like a bit of bent coat hanger goes through a hole in a lever on the underside of the deck. This lever has a step in it which normally holds another lever, which starts the changing cycle, away from a pin on the cycling cam gear. If the first lever is not completely free to move on its pivot, or the spring attached to it is too weak, you will have continuous cycling as you describe

Audio1950 · 28th Apr 2017, 1:39 pm

Quote:

Originally Posted by Records

No, look at the metal turret that the arm that holds the record stack in place comes out of, below it there should be a piece of shaped metal stuck out, or maybe in your case you can't see it, but you should see a slot where it should come out of.

This picture shows the arm.

The deck the OP has is not a BSR, it's a Garrard, which doesn't have an "arm that holds the record stack in place", aka "the overarm". The records rest on a pusher platform.

Techman · 28th Apr 2017, 6:10 pm

I've worked on these RC80 type decks quite a lot. The problem is likely to be caused by a gummed up velocity trip. My advice would be to read and fully digest the description of exactly how the velocity trip works as described in the 'sticky' threads at the top of this page. The description is for the mechanism used in later decks than yours but the theory is exactly the same.

Everything on these decks is adjustable, but unless you suspect or know that it's definitely been 'twiddled' with in the past, then DO NOT touch any of the adjustments until you've proved that any problems are not being caused by gummed up lubrication.

The trip pawl/velocity trip is shown in your last posted picture (post #9) and the 'friction' pad is under the threaded adjuster with the lock nut on it - DO NOT touch this adjustment at this stage!

The whole arm moves from the pivot point at the top of your picture. Check that the whole assembly is free to move left to right from the pivot - I'll bet it doesn't as it'll be completely gummed up.

Remember - read up and understand how the velocity trip works and that it relies on friction, but also that it must be completely free to move and NO oil must allowed to contaminate the friction surface. However, a drop or two of clock oil should be applied to the pivot post ONLY!

loughrans · 28th Apr 2017, 9:13 pm

Hi
Thanks for the replies, the latch trip seems free enough, I went through the process of playing a record and switched it off just as the tone arm was about to reject, lifted the turntable off and the trip latch hadn't advanced to the centre, I have the manual and digest it a bit to get to know the process
regards
Sean

electrogram · 29th Apr 2017, 12:00 am

The lever indicated is likely to be your problem. First pic shows it in normal position, second pic when changer is cycling. If it doesn't move freely or its light spring hasn't enough tension it will always be as in the second picture and the cycle start lever will not be latched out of action, resulting in continuous cycling

Techman · 29th Apr 2017, 12:18 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by electrogram

resulting in continuous cycling

That's the whole point, I don't think from his description that it is continuously cycling as he says that the arm immediately lifts and goes back to rest and switches off, indicating that binding pivot bearing on the top.

I have had that continuous cycling problem though.

loughrans · 29th Apr 2017, 1:43 am

Hi
Yes the lever with the step on it is not seized but not very loose as in the spring won't bring it back, how loose should it be? I presume only very light force will move it
The turntable doesn't continuously cycle, where is the binding pivot bearing
thanks
Sean

Techman · 29th Apr 2017, 1:48 am

Quote:

Originally Posted by loughrans

where is the binding pivot bearing

It's as I described and shown in your picture.

electrogram · 29th Apr 2017, 9:45 am

OK, but the only reason it isn't continuously cycling is because the shut off arm doesn't detect more records and switches the motor off and turntable brake brings turntable to a stop immediately. The cam gear will still be engaged, if turntable is rotated by hand after shutoff it will still cycle, without the start lever being operated. The lever with the step should move very freely, if the spring does not bring it back it is not free enough

loughrans · 29th Apr 2017, 3:41 pm

Hi
I am making progress at, I had to loosen the nut that holds this in place and change the spring to get a good return action, hopefully it will loosed over time and I can tighten the nut. The tone arm now doesn't reject. I just need to make some adjustments as its lifting off about halfway through the track no. 6 of a six track album. Do you know what type of amp was inside these machines there is an amp/power centre inside for the radio connected to the front speaker, there is a connector and cable coming from the tone arm but I can't see any tone arm phone input on the amp/power centre. Also previous owner had a hi-fi speaker inside it but not connected to anything. The amp is labelled as a P.J. 500 and have attached a picture, will attach picture of the tone arm connection in the next post. Thanks for all your help
Sean

27th Apr 2017, 3:43 pm	#1
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Pye Radiogram Hi Haven't looked at many radiograms before, jukeboxes is usually my thing. I have a Pye radiogram, no model number, radio is working but problems with the turntable. The turntable turn tone arm will just rise and lower and not advance to the record and then turntable switches off. I removed the assembly to get a better look at the mechanics underneath and lubricated. I cycled the cam manually and I can see the mechanism being released, if you look at the attached doc where my finger is pointing to it explains it better, I don't know the names for the various bits and pieces of levers but in the picture if you can see the rectangular lever which is linked with the lever the holds the record in place on the top of the turntable, as I cycle the cam it prevents the tone arm from unlocking as follows... during the cam cycling it moves back and locks the tone arm up. If I stop it from moving back the tone arm will advance and come back as I manually cycle it. The only problem then is the tone arm will be floating and not locked back into position after a record has been played. If anyone could point me in the right direction or am I missing something regards sean Attached Thumbnails

27th Apr 2017, 4:30 pm	#2
Edward Huggins Dekatron Join Date: Sep 2015 Location: Southwold, Suffolk, UK. Posts: 8,326	Re: Pye Radiogram Welcome. It would really help if you could identify the Pye Model number or the Model of the turntable. From the mechanics, it looks like a Garrard but need more info. Tone arms do not normally "lock back" after a playing session unless you do this manually. __________________ Edward.

27th Apr 2017, 5:54 pm	#3
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi The record turntable is a Garrard RC80M automatic record changer. From the photo in the previous post the latch with the notch at the end of it lifts at the start of the cycle but is pushed back down by the rectangular linkage (also in the photo) and prevents the tone arm going any further can't go any further regards Sean Attached Thumbnails

27th Apr 2017, 6:24 pm	#4
electrogram Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hereford, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Pye Radiogram Looks like an RC75. Possibly stating the obvious but if the sensing finger does not detect a record loaded on the platform/spindle, it will do as you describe.

27th Apr 2017, 6:57 pm	#5
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi Is the sensing finger the piece on the turntable to hold record in place

27th Apr 2017, 9:38 pm	#6
Records Hexode Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Harwich, Essex, UK. Posts: 429	Re: Pye Radiogram No, look at the metal turret that the arm that holds the record stack in place comes out of, below it there should be a piece of shaped metal stuck out, or maybe in your case you can't see it, but you should see a slot where it should come out of. This picture shows the arm. Attached Thumbnails

27th Apr 2017, 10:45 pm	#7
electrogram Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hereford, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Pye Radiogram The sensing finger is the smaller chrome plated arm above the tonearm.when you start the changer it moves across to detect if any records are loaded. If there aren't any the deck will switch off with the tonearm locked. Last edited by electrogram; 27th Apr 2017 at 10:48 pm. Reason: Missed a bit

27th Apr 2017, 11:31 pm	#8
RojDW48 Nonode Join Date: Jun 2014 Location: Bristol, UK. Posts: 2,074	Re: Pye Radiogram I had a Collaro deck years ago which confused me in a similar way, but it used the tonearm to sense the presence and diameter of a record. So far as I know Garrard always used a separate swinging arm to do the same job at that time. __________________ '....don't go mistaking Paradise for that home across the road!' (Bob Dylan)

27th Apr 2017, 11:59 pm	#9
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi Thanks for the replies, yes I see what you mean, it was obvious, I just thought that a record could be loaded onto the turntable by hand straight onto the turntable and played, I had forgotten how old turntables operate. So now the tone arm will drop onto the record but sure enough it drops for a second or two and rejects and switches off. I assume the trip for the mechanism is the piece in the attached photo, what way can this be adjusted or is there anything missing form the piece, thanks again Sean Attached Thumbnails

28th Apr 2017, 9:02 am	#10
'LIVEWIRE?' Rest in Peace Join Date: Mar 2006 Location: N.W. Oxfordshire(Chipping Norton) Posts: 7,306	Re: Pye Radiogram Just an observation - the picture in post # 6 is of a BSR UA8. Garrard decks worked on a simiklar principle, though, as did one Collaro player. As to the problem with your RC75, maybe a member familiar with this deck (which I'm not) can help you, but generally speaking, many problems with old autochangers are caused by dried out grease.

28th Apr 2017, 11:52 am	#11
electrogram Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hereford, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Pye Radiogram The part that looks like a bit of bent coat hanger goes through a hole in a lever on the underside of the deck. This lever has a step in it which normally holds another lever, which starts the changing cycle, away from a pin on the cycling cam gear. If the first lever is not completely free to move on its pivot, or the spring attached to it is too weak, you will have continuous cycling as you describe

28th Apr 2017, 6:10 pm	#13
Techman Dekatron Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Lincolnshire, UK. Posts: 5,000	Re: Pye Radiogram I've worked on these RC80 type decks quite a lot. The problem is likely to be caused by a gummed up velocity trip. My advice would be to read and fully digest the description of exactly how the velocity trip works as described in the 'sticky' threads at the top of this page. The description is for the mechanism used in later decks than yours but the theory is exactly the same. Everything on these decks is adjustable, but unless you suspect or know that it's definitely been 'twiddled' with in the past, then DO NOT touch any of the adjustments until you've proved that any problems are not being caused by gummed up lubrication. The trip pawl/velocity trip is shown in your last posted picture (post #9) and the 'friction' pad is under the threaded adjuster with the lock nut on it - DO NOT touch this adjustment at this stage! The whole arm moves from the pivot point at the top of your picture. Check that the whole assembly is free to move left to right from the pivot - I'll bet it doesn't as it'll be completely gummed up. Remember - read up and understand how the velocity trip works and that it relies on friction, but also that it must be completely free to move and NO oil must allowed to contaminate the friction surface. However, a drop or two of clock oil should be applied to the pivot post ONLY!

28th Apr 2017, 9:13 pm	#14
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi Thanks for the replies, the latch trip seems free enough, I went through the process of playing a record and switched it off just as the tone arm was about to reject, lifted the turntable off and the trip latch hadn't advanced to the centre, I have the manual and digest it a bit to get to know the process regards Sean

29th Apr 2017, 12:00 am	#15
electrogram Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hereford, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Pye Radiogram The lever indicated is likely to be your problem. First pic shows it in normal position, second pic when changer is cycling. If it doesn't move freely or its light spring hasn't enough tension it will always be as in the second picture and the cycle start lever will not be latched out of action, resulting in continuous cycling Attached Thumbnails

29th Apr 2017, 1:43 am	#17
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi Yes the lever with the step on it is not seized but not very loose as in the spring won't bring it back, how loose should it be? I presume only very light force will move it The turntable doesn't continuously cycle, where is the binding pivot bearing thanks Sean

29th Apr 2017, 9:45 am	#19
electrogram Heptode Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Hereford, UK. Posts: 719	Re: Pye Radiogram OK, but the only reason it isn't continuously cycling is because the shut off arm doesn't detect more records and switches the motor off and turntable brake brings turntable to a stop immediately. The cam gear will still be engaged, if turntable is rotated by hand after shutoff it will still cycle, without the start lever being operated. The lever with the step should move very freely, if the spring does not bring it back it is not free enough

29th Apr 2017, 3:41 pm	#20
loughrans Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Sep 2012 Location: Monaghan, Ireland. Posts: 17	Re: Pye Radiogram Hi I am making progress at, I had to loosen the nut that holds this in place and change the spring to get a good return action, hopefully it will loosed over time and I can tighten the nut. The tone arm now doesn't reject. I just need to make some adjustments as its lifting off about halfway through the track no. 6 of a six track album. Do you know what type of amp was inside these machines there is an amp/power centre inside for the radio connected to the front speaker, there is a connector and cable coming from the tone arm but I can't see any tone arm phone input on the amp/power centre. Also previous owner had a hi-fi speaker inside it but not connected to anything. The amp is labelled as a P.J. 500 and have attached a picture, will attach picture of the tone arm connection in the next post. Thanks for all your help Sean Attached Thumbnails