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Old 16th Oct 2018, 11:25 pm   #601
ntscuser
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re: Post #600 I'd have thought the Band III reflector was superfluous since the Band I dipole could serve the same purpose?
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 12:00 am   #602
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Here is the Aerial i p osted earlier taken from a slightly different angle. Maybe the band III which is a kind of Rombus shape can be better identified. ITV in this area was usually from the Mendelsham mast but maybe this set up pre dates that a little. Im amazed it has all stayed up there and lasted so long!
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Old 17th Oct 2018, 11:40 am   #603
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

RE post no. 602:

michamoo, yes, you are quite right, it is a rhombus type (cubical quad) aerial for Band III. Perhaps the owner of the property back in the late 50s/early 60s was an avid reader of 'Practical Television' and decide to make one himself?? Ely though was getting towards the fringe for Mendelsham, so perhaps it was for the later (1965) Sandy Heath relay?
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Old 4th Nov 2018, 11:24 am   #604
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Due to road-works in Thatcham I had to make a diversion through a 1920s/30s housing-estate and spotted some old 405-line antennas.

In the first pic the Band-I "H" has lost both its upper elements. When it was healthy it would have been for the 405-line BBC signal from London. On the same mast - a horizontally-polarised Band-III with a bent reflector and flapping-in-the-wind broken downlead; this would once have been for ITV from Membury. (The UHF antenna on the same mast points at Hannington)


Second photo shows another Membury horizontal Band-III this time missing the last of its directors. The Hannington UHF antennas look sad; the one on the left seems to be missing its reflector while the one on the right seemingly has no dipole or reflector or downlead remaining.

The horizontal dipole on the right - is it a Band-II FM radio antenna? Or could it be a top-end-of-Band-I TV antenna? There were several low-power 405-line repeaters in the area (Hungerford had one) that operated horizontal polarisation at the top end of Band-I.
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Old 6th Nov 2018, 1:59 pm   #605
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 604:

First photo - I suspect that both the Band I and Band III aerials are Belling & Lee. B & L were one of the few makers who put their Band III folded dipole in the same plane as the elements - also the junction box and element holders are of a style that B&L used.

Second photo - the Band III is a 'Trumatch' Antiference design - also the element holders are in Antiference's distinctive style.
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Old 15th Nov 2018, 8:12 pm   #606
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Here's a couple more, both visible from the main A4 through Thatcham.


#1 is a combined Band-I dipole-and-director (lacking its upper arms) and six-by-six bayed Band-III (missing one of the dipoles). The Band-III antennas are coupled to the feedpoint of rhe Band-I dipole by parallel lines. It all looks rather robust, despite the loss of the upper BI elements.

They both point due-East to get London BBC and ITV. I guess when installed the total lack of front-to-back-ratio offered by a dipole-and-director didn't matter because there was no other station on Channel-1. The UHF antenna lower down the mast points to Hannington.

#2 is the sad remains of what was once a dipole-and-reflector for Band-I pointing due East towards London. It sits on a chimney above what is now a Chinese takeaway. Only one 'leg' of the dipole remains, and I suspect the remaining stumpy lower part of the reflector was sawn off to give space for the horizontally-polarised Band-III Yagi which points to Membury.

It looks like there's some kind of diplexer immediately behind the junction of the vertical mast and the crosspiece for the BI array.

I've always wondered just how well Membury (a relay of ITV Midlands originally broadcast from the Litchfield Tx) was accepted: would people living 50 miles from London really have been that interested in the ITV News covering distant places like Mansfield or Derby that would have back then been at least half a day's train/car journey away?
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Old 17th Feb 2019, 6:44 pm   #607
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

We've been living here a month and I've only just spotted this array, part of the view from our own balcony. No excuse except for being distracted by the much closer prospect of a chimney with a remarkable growth of ivy...

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Old 18th Feb 2019, 1:09 am   #608
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

When we came down here a lot of the 405 antennas were still in use but most have gradually dissapeared since but I saw one the other day in very good condition still but I can't remember where. I suspect it was in the Chard area so I will try and get a picture of it.

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Old 18th Feb 2019, 2:10 pm   #609
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 607:

Most likely: A Channel 3 'H' for the Tacolneston BBC transmitter combined with a Channel 11 array for the ITA's Mendelsham transmitter.
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 1:31 pm   #610
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

A postscript to post no. 609:

Given the location of Fakenham I reckon the UHF aerial is pointed to the Belmont transmitter - which would make it a Group A aerial. I wonder if there are examples of the rarer combined VHF/UHF aerials around there? Belmont transmitted 405 line TV in Band III on channels 7 for ITA and 13 for BBC - both vertically polarised. This was an era in the late 60s when BBC and ITV were still on 405 line only, but BBC2 was on UHF; hence the erection of these types of aerial.

Last edited by SteveCG; 19th Feb 2019 at 1:33 pm. Reason: missing word
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Old 19th Feb 2019, 8:44 pm   #611
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

We installed a lot of combined VHF/UHF aerials, ch 9,12 and 62. I will keep a look out for them, there may still be the odd one around.
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Old 20th Feb 2019, 12:11 pm   #612
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Frank, yes indeed these combined VHF/UHF aerials were used in the Winter Hill service area as well, as you say on 9, 12 (both VP) and 62 (HP).

Since they were small enough, I wonder how many are still lurking, in good condition, in lofts? After all, the UHF section was still of use until the closure of analogue TV and the resulting transmitter frequency changes. I've not checked recently but in the Belmont area perhaps the Group A section of a combined could still be valid for digital?
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Old 28th Feb 2019, 3:57 am   #613
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by G6Tanuki View Post
Here's a couple more, both visible from the main A4 through Thatcham.


#1 is a combined Band-I dipole-and-director (lacking its upper arms) and six-by-six bayed Band-III (missing one of the dipoles). The Band-III antennas are coupled to the feedpoint of rhe Band-I dipole by parallel lines. It all looks rather robust, despite the loss of the upper BI elements.

They both point due-East to get London BBC and ITV. I guess when installed the total lack of front-to-back-ratio offered by a dipole-and-director didn't matter because there was no other station on Channel-1. The UHF antenna lower down the mast points to Hannington.

#2 is the sad remains of what was once a dipole-and-reflector for Band-I pointing due East towards London. It sits on a chimney above what is now a Chinese takeaway. Only one 'leg' of the dipole remains, and I suspect the remaining stumpy lower part of the reflector was sawn off to give space for the horizontally-polarised Band-III Yagi which points to Membury.

It looks like there's some kind of diplexer immediately behind the junction of the vertical mast and the crosspiece for the BI array.

I've always wondered just how well Membury (a relay of ITV Midlands originally broadcast from the Litchfield Tx) was accepted: would people living 50 miles from London really have been that interested in the ITV News covering distant places like Mansfield or Derby that would have back then been at least half a day's train/car journey away?
A similar situation exists today in Gloucester with Midlands BBC news being provided to an area in the West.
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Old 28th Feb 2019, 12:24 pm   #614
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 613.

The 405 line fringe reception in the South Midlands made for happy aerial spotting with large arrays pointed South and North. Later on the ITA put a moderately powerful transmitter at Ridge Hill proving ATV (Midlands) on channel B6, vert pol. However BBC viewers never had such a coverage boost; as the Hereford relay and that covering Cheltenham and Gloucester were low powered affairs - both providing BBC Midlands programming.

Later on with analogue 625 line TV, whilst the main channels from Ridge Hill were Midlands programming a lower power transmission, beamed at Cheltenham & Gloucester on channel I30, supplied ITV (West). If you wanted BBC (West) then you had to try to receive Mendip's signals. I used to watch BBC West this way as the local weather forecast was better for where I lived.
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Old 28th Feb 2019, 3:36 pm   #615
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Back in the analogue (625) days, Derby used to be better positioned to pick up Sutton Coldfield than Nottingham -- but Derby's news was broadcast on the East Midlands opt-in, and probably went unwatched altogether by its intened audience. And there probably were parts of North Warwickshire that were better served by Nottingham than SC, but their news was on the West Midlands opt-in.
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 11:24 am   #616
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

mainly to overcome traffic snarl ups I have recently experimented with a new route from Horsham to the Dulwich museum.
It takes me via Dorking, Reigate, Merstham, Purley, Croydon and finally Beulah Hill and Crystal Palace.
It's an interesting route with quite a number of aerials from the 405 line era, some of which are in remarkably good condition.

This splendid example of a totally original 'X' aerial is to be seen at the rear of a shop premises in Portland Road East Croydon. It is lined up with AP and must have produced an incredibly strong signal when the CP transmitter was opened in 1956 literally in it's back garden!
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Old 3rd Mar 2019, 11:31 am   #617
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nuvistor View Post
We installed a lot of combined VHF/UHF aerials, ch 9,12 and 62. I will keep a look out for them, there may still be the odd one around.
I saw one on Friday in the Wigan area, I was on the top deck of the bus and had passed too quickly to take a photo, or I am too slow these days. It was a 5 element VHF, couldn’t count the UHF elements probably 12 or thereabouts.

The group for UHF will be C, I think Winter Hill have changed channels groups so how well it works, if indeed it does I don’t know.

If it’s still there when I next pass by I will take a photo.
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Old 4th Mar 2019, 12:12 pm   #618
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Re post no. 616.

A strong signal indeed - perhaps enough for a 40 W light bulb

That must be an early, ie post '49, Antiference Antex 'X'.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 3:58 am   #619
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

I understand Holme Moss 405 BBC used to reach Birmingham easily back in the day, the same with Granada from Winter Hill.

Later on, when I lived in Wolverhampton, it was possible to receive a grainy Granada from Winter Hill on UHF, but digital signals no longer make it this far.
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Old 1st Apr 2019, 10:43 am   #620
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Default Re: 405-Line VHF Aerials 2013 to the present day.

Holme Moss service area, Birmingham would have been in the fringe.
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