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General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc. |
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21st Mar 2023, 12:33 pm | #1 |
Dekatron
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Numbering Schemes.
Having rcently ordered a load of stuff from RS, I wonder, does anyone know the logic behind their numbering-scheme?
504 seems to be 'small mains transformers' for example. Then there are the Military numbering schemes; Army "ZA", the Air Ministry 10C series, and later NSN which plenty of us are familiar with. I guess there must be some Military departments that define these things and apply them in a coordinated way to avoid numberspace-clashes, otherwise you'd have the risk that you'd order up a set of cloth earphone-covers for your aircraft-headphones, and get a Lancaster Bomber delivered by mistake. Another numbering-scheme I came across in times past was "Brisch", see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_G._Brisch - which was used a lot in the petrochemical industry to identify wellhead equipment, pipes, valves, flanges, actuators, control-system assemblies. What other schemes have people come across, I wonder?
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21st Mar 2023, 12:42 pm | #2 |
Dekatron
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
(Along with Admiralty Pattern Numbers)
I notice that when you pick up an old military spanner it will have a crows foot marking and a date year, but no actual reference number. I'm sure there was thought behind it all as you say, but to us on the outside it makes about as much sense as an episode of Numberwang. Dave |
21st Mar 2023, 1:04 pm | #3 |
Octode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
The Philips 12NC System.
The variety of objects which it covered must be vast, everything from a complete piece of equipment to the fasteners which held it together. The information included was, amongst others, the country of origin and the division where the equipment was designed and made. PMM |
21st Mar 2023, 5:08 pm | #4 |
Dekatron
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
There was the (old) HP part numbering scheme.
Subassemblies/PCBs had 2 groups of 5 digits. The first group, padded out with leading zeros was the model number of the instrument that first used that subassembly. For example the microcode board in an HP9830 calculator/computer is a 09810-66513 as it was first used in the HP9810. Components had 2 groups of 4 digits. The first group was the class of component, there was a fairly complete list in at least one manual (or maybe an issue of 'Bench Briefs'. 1853 was a silicon PNP transistor, 1854 a silicon NPN transistor, 1820 a digital logic IC, 1818 a memory IC, 9100 a transformer, etc. |
21st Mar 2023, 6:56 pm | #5 | |
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Quote:
While most 12NCs refer to a country and to particular divisions/locations, the country of origin and factory where something was made, was only coded implicitly. The code usually refers to the country or coding centre where some part or set was conceived or designed. Not necessarily where it originated physically though that was often implied. Though theoretically the system could cover a trillion (10^12) articles, the number of meaningful digits was often much lower and not all coding groups were used. Realistically maybe a billion (10^9) articles could have been coded. Philips will never need another numbering scheme. Last edited by Maarten; 21st Mar 2023 at 7:07 pm. |
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21st Mar 2023, 7:25 pm | #6 |
Dekatron
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Deeply fascinating; I had never come across the Philips 12NC system before.
One of the problems with 'commercial' product/numbering-systems is that when their corporate-sponsor parent goes into the waiting-room-for-oblivion most of the supporting data goes with them. After all, if you're clearing an old business-site for new tenants, what value is there in a few filing-cabinets of microfiches that belonged to the previous tenants in the sixties/seventies.
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21st Mar 2023, 10:08 pm | #7 |
Nonode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Decades ago, in Pye Telecom days, I still remember various spares prefixes. FVO transistor or diode, FU0 an ic, AE microphone insert, AL a wound component , PL a potentiometer, PS a capacitor, NG or newer PM a resistor, FC0 a crystal filter, FF a fuse, FL a bulb, FT a female connector, FP a plug, FW wire, FR a relay, FB a battery, FS, a switch, AT a manufactured assembly, CT a "special", often systems assembly, FS a switch and so on.
My last job, I retired nearly 10 years ago, the prefix was 2 digits followed by a hyphen. 14, capacitor, 59, resistor, 57, relays, 20, connectors, 45, metalwork, 65, software, 61, semiconductors, 68, completed module, 79 wired component, 69, cooling fans, always a good wind up with the lady at stores counter! Strange how I remember less from 10 to 20 years ago rather than from 30 to 55 years ago I stand to be corrected if any errors in my Pye part numbers! Rob
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21st Mar 2023, 10:30 pm | #8 |
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Plesseys numbering system was used across most sites and took the following form
XXX/XX/XXXXX/XXX Where the first 3 numbers were the site locator and business unit. The second 2 could be a single digit number or two letters The Next 5 were the item part number. The Last 3 were the variant. A couple of examples So Poole Plessey controls nominally had 2 number 666 and 667 /1/ was usually a complete assembly /4/ was a bought in part to a drawing /7/ was a common bought in part. /HB/ Handbook /DZ/Family Tree followed by the part number usually issued in blocks for a complete suite of documents parts and assemblies. The last 3 digits are the variant often by feature or sometimes with modifications or part changes. 667/HU/46000/000 if you do a google search on this number it's still in use, Siemens Mobility in Poole and now Yunex have continued to use the old Plessey numbering system. Cheers Mike T
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22nd Mar 2023, 11:00 am | #9 |
Dekatron
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Radio Shack / Tandy always had their characteristic product part number scheme with the first two digits usually signifying the group category, for example 22-xxx was nearly always an item of test gear (multimeters, logic probes, etc).
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22nd Mar 2023, 11:28 am | #10 |
Nonode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
You mention the Air Ministry 10C series, but 10C is but one Section of AP1086 which covers almost everything the Air Force needed and was referenced in their Stores, from an aircraft to a hangar to a nut and bolt, or in the case of Section 10C, a capacitor or inductor.
Andy |
22nd Mar 2023, 11:45 am | #11 |
Nonode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Working at Pye Telecom (actually probably Philips after take over) I did once order a 12NC number and what turned up in a London Couriers wagon? (The in house transport service!)
A washing machine. Not what I wanted. |
22nd Mar 2023, 1:15 pm | #12 | |
Pentode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Quote:
I have to say ,this was before there was a computer involved with stock control. |
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22nd Mar 2023, 8:30 pm | #13 | ||
Octode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Quote:
There was also a culture of designing custom parts where standard commercial ones were readily from multiple sources. Half jokingly, I once tried to get the chief technical clerk to code the entire RS catalogue to overcome this waste. He was tolerant, helpful and thoroughly efficient, but it just wouldn't have been possible. PMM |
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24th Mar 2023, 3:05 am | #14 | |
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Implementation varied (sometimes wildly) by industry group and by coding centre. This was definitely a risk somewhat inherent to the system, though especially for standard parts this should probably have been kept on file locally. It would have been a bit more work, but definitely pay off.
Quote:
Though I suppose it would have been somewhat of a coincidence that the other 10 digits actually matched an existing number in both code groups since they were built up quite differently. Last edited by Maarten; 24th Mar 2023 at 3:10 am. |
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24th Mar 2023, 11:25 am | #15 |
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
I did once put in the paperwork to set up a new HP part/stock number "Washer, non-ferrous, mint flavor". Training exercise. I think all part numbering schemes must have a few jokes in them.
Multiple part numbers for the same part were a symptom of value-sort catalogues not being easily enough to search. Once searching was on-line, it became a symptom of inadequate description in the searchable fields. David
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24th Mar 2023, 12:46 pm | #16 |
Octode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
The system the RAF used (before Nato Stock Numbers came in) was AP1086, and it is collosal, given that it covers far more than just the electronics we might be interested in.
Electronics is listed in Section 10, but that has many subsections for different types of part. So 10A is "miscellaneous radio equipment", Section 10AB is "miscellaneous radar equipment", and it goes on through the alphabet....10AC, 10AD.......10AU, 10B, 10BB, 10C......down to 10Z (which is air conditioning, ventilation etc for radio equipment). Each of the sub-sections can be a substantial paperback in its own right, the 10xy prefix being followed by a numeric string, 3, 4 or 5 digits long, in order to identify individual items. So for example, I have a PT15 valve sitting on my desk here, and it doesn't actually say "PT15" on it (that's the commercial type number) - instead it had "VT104" (the RAF type number) but also "10E/215" (the AP1086 stores ref.) A useful place to start is with Book 1, which can downloaded from here. That has a useful list of AP1086 sections which start at 1A "Hand tools - tools general". Section 1B is the same......and so it goes on. I've never seen a complete set of AP1086 volumes but I imagine it must have filled many bookcases or filing cabinets. Richard |
24th Mar 2023, 9:12 pm | #17 |
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Has anyone else input an RS number of some ancient device into their site only to find that it now refers to Something Completely Different?
Particularly irritating for items from the days when all they were marked with was the RS part number. |
25th Mar 2023, 12:24 am | #18 |
Nonode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Maplins numbers used to be AB12C or A12BC.
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25th Mar 2023, 1:33 pm | #19 |
Dekatron
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
Recycling code nunmbers, I find particularly annoying. There should be a rule against it.
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26th Mar 2023, 12:46 am | #20 |
Nonode
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Re: Numbering Schemes.
. . .And then you've got the Siemens system, which is supposed to mean SOMETHING, but what I have never been able to decipher, such as this example :–
6ES7223-1BH22-0XA0 . . .And Siemens have very thoughtfully deleted the pdf on their website that used to explain it! . . .I've a vague memory of somebody using the Philips "12NC" system in Television magazine and getting all sorts of unbelievable items turning up, but I can't remember where I read it tho! . . .Don't forget the Tektronix System, that one's quite understandable, and I think there is bookwork that deciphers it on the "TekWiki" somewhere – their format is "xxx–xxxx–0x" where the final "x" after the zero is the part revision number – to take a few examples, "070–xxxx–00" always refers to manuals, "120–xxxx–0x" is Custom Transformers, "154–xxxx–0x” is cathode ray tubes, and "366–xxxx–0x" is equipment knobs! Of any manufacturer I would say Tektronix had, like so many of their systems, the most useful and well documented part number system! Chris Williams
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