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Vintage Test Gear and Workshop Equipment For discussions about vintage test gear and workshop equipment such as coil winders.

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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 5:27 pm   #41
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

You find cheap sets of "Aviation Shears" or snips which give you a set of left-hand offset, right and straight. Quite affordable and work well on light gauge aluminium. But if you go for long cuts, distortion of the work is still a nuisance.

The Goscut nibbler was pre-dated by the monodex nibbler

You can get electric motorised nibblers and compressed air powered ones.

I already mentioned the need for a generously sized vice on a nice solid bench. I didn't mention soft jaws assuming someoone would make their own. A decent vice is needed for using angle iron pieces as a folder.

The esoteric stuff is nice and a great labour saving but you still need to wield files and a hacksaw. Without the fancy stuff, the file and the hacksaw will get you there. I learned to shape metal in a vice with a hammer and chisel. Skill and time can compensate for £££

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Old 23rd Aug 2018, 10:11 pm   #42
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

I did realise that the vice had been mentioned before but felt that it might be getting difficult for Adam to see the wood for the trees with the wealth of interesting advice being put forward.

I do feel, however, that buying cheap tools of any kind (tin snips included) is a big mistake and nearly always leads to disappointmet. This is where buying used items really comes into its own as it is possible to acquire really good quality tools for very little money. The supply is plentiful too. Just visit any car boot sale or flea market. My Gilbow off-set snips cost £1 each and are well suited to steel or aluminium.

By the way, I once tried using a Monodex nibbler, but only once!

Alan
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 1:07 am   #43
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Like most here I found that bending sheet metal with pieces of angle iron, clamps and a rubber mallet is doable but the results are far from professional, after waiting in vain for a secondhand one to come up at the right price I eventually tackled a home brew pan brake with fingers - having a bending brake greatly increases the chance of a professional looking product but it does not automatically happen, you need to know how to use it. The first project I used for it required some bends in 450mm wide 2mm thick Al, the bends looked ok but looking along the length I could see a slight outward bow probably caused by flex in the bender, after doing some internet research I learned that AL can be annealed like copper, just heat along the fold line then let it cool in the air naturally, I forget the exact temp needed possibly in the region of 450 - 550 C. I just use my Map gas torch and play it along the bend line for a minute or so. Unlike copper which will stay soft once annealed until it work hardens I believe the Al will revert back to a 'hardened state' by itself over time. The reduced amount of effort needed to bend annealed Al is very noticeable.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 6:06 am   #44
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

" I learned that AL can be annealed like copper, just heat along the fold line then let it cool in the air naturally, I forget the exact temp needed possibly in the region of 450" Interesting, didn't think of that, steel stock comes in, amongst other flavours, cold and hot rolled, both with different working properties. But doesn't heating leave marks? The other problem is most commercial available ali sheet is covered in a plastic film on one side, still I suppose you can take it off for bending and apply tape afterwards..

It is tricky as others have siad to get pro looking results, but possible. I built my brake out of wood, it will bend 0.75mm ali really well, you just have to add a 1/16" for the bend, it also bends thin steel. The problem with a brake is when you want to bend a complex pattern like that of a box, which in one dimension is cross shaped. 1st bend/side one - easy. Second bend side two, do-able, but now you have a U shape with two ears at right angles, side 3/4. How the b&6%4£3 do you bend them?

There's some good tips on this thread, hope we havn't put the OP off with our caveat's.

Andy.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 6:53 am   #45
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

THe old guide was to touch the hot aluminium with a tallow candle and the melted tallow smoked.

Olde worlde aluminium-wrangling workshops kept tallow candles because they were used as a flux for gas welding aluminium, a feat which took a lot of skill and experience.

Annealing helps a lot when your folder capacity is limited.and is required for high strength items. But in normal work, professional shops work cold but may order ready-annealed strip to work on.

This video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xSB_z4JVPIk

shows a skilled worker with a v-block press with all the bells and whistles so you can see how v-blocks are moved around. Notice the robotic back-stop! But this sort of work on aluminium can be done on a far smaller machine. I put the pointer in for anyone who's not seen it being done.

RS sold a little hand-cranked press that mounted on a bench which could be fitted with v-blocks to do small folding. It also worked with punches and dies to make holes the easy way - round and special shapes. This little thing was expensive, and the tooling more so. But they're worth knowing about in case one appears for sale affordably. Careful setting up is needed for all folding to get an accurate result.

At the home-brew end of the scale is this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nF0GCCKRcvA

It shows the use of a drill press and taps to make a simple lightweight folder. The sawing could be done with a hacksaw and vice, but the drill press is a big advantage in drilling accurate holes. Nuts could be used instead of tapping holes.

You could make this folder using a vice, hacksaw and a bench drill. with care you could use a hand drill.

What it won't do is fold boxes. That's where machines with movable fingers in place of the angle irons come in.

David
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 8:35 am   #46
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Quote:
Originally Posted by Diabolical Artificer View Post
" I learned that AL can be annealed like copper, just heat along the fold line then let it cool in the air naturally, I forget the exact temp needed possibly in the region of 450"
If you rub the heated area with common soap it will be at the right temperature for annealing when the soap turns brown.

Jim
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 9:44 am   #47
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Gabro make nice sheet metal equipment if you ever come across it. I have one of there guillotines, the type that cuts a narrow strip of metal from the sheet so no distortion, also limitless length of cut. Brilliant.

Having to smooth the face of hammers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No no no!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are carpenter's hammers and there are engineer's hammers, and they are not interchangeable.

A carpenters, usually claw, hammer has a soft face intended ONLY for banging in wire nails, nothing else. Not masonry nails, not screws, just soft wire nails. Why? Because the only way to bang a 4" nail in is to have the force acting along the length of the nail, exactly, otherwise it will bend. To achieve this the head of the hammer cold welds to the top of the nail, because it now can't slide the force will automatically act along the nail, so it goes in. You can buy tack hammers that also have a soft face for banging in tacks, but they are rare and I doubt any tool dealer would know what you are talking about. A tack can be 2" long and not much more than 1/16" diameter with a lost head. These hammers almost always have a cross pein, to allow you to start a 1/2" tack without mangling your fingers.

An engineer's hammer has a hardened face, it will ring when banged on an anvil, and is used for most everything else. It almost always has either a ball or cross pein on the opposite face.

Neither of these hammers are used to hit concrete, bricks etc. For that a lump hammer is used.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 10:05 am   #48
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Thanks for the most interesting info on hammers, I hadn't come across it before.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 10:14 am   #49
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Its been nice to see so much input, thanks everyone.

@Woodchips, very kind of you to offer those bits, the 24'' folder may be a bit big though as my work shop is very small and space is at a premium. The cutters would be nice but I cant see myself getting down your way any time soon and I imagine the postage may be prohibitive. Again, thanks for the offer, the generosity and kind spirit of members here continues to affirm my faith in humanity !

I was mainly looking to see if its feesible for me to knock up small boxes in my small brick workshop, and the answer seems to be a resounding yes, with some basic tools

Regarding the quality of boxes, I realise at least at first that the quality wont be that great, but that really doesn't bother me. It will be better than some of the abominations I've knocked up with used corn beef tins, or cut pieces of copper clad board . If I wanted something pretty and professional looking I have a neighbour who does metal fabrication, but he's not cheap so for most stuff I will be looking at doing my own. In particular Im assembling a termination pad for an E1 signal generator, which really needs decent metal enclosure, that just needs to be functional.

I do have some tools in my late fathers tool chest, some nice old 70s looking Gilbow snips, centre punches, a usable hacksaw. What I do need is a decent vice and possibly a small bending brake, rivet gun.

I take everyones point about quality tools, in particular a decent vice. Many ive seen aren't up to it. Im kicking myself for getting rid of a rusty old one that was in an old shed when I moved into my house. With hindsight I could have probably cleaned it up as it was very robust.

Theres some cheap bending brakes on ebay that seem to have reasonable reviews, not good enough for steel but might be ok for aluminium. Im a regular at bootsales so will keep an eye out now I know what Im looking for, and will read the threads here in more detail when I have time.

Thanks again
Adam
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 1:38 pm   #50
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

Quote:
Originally Posted by woodchips View Post
Gabro make nice sheet metal equipment if you ever come across it. I have one of there guillotines, the type that cuts a narrow strip of metal from the sheet so no distortion, also limitless length of cut. Brilliant.

Having to smooth the face of hammers!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

No no no!!!!!!!!!!!!!

There are carpenter's hammers and there are engineer's hammers, and they are not interchangeable.

A carpenters, usually claw, hammer has a soft face intended ONLY for banging in wire nails, nothing else. Not masonry nails, not screws, just soft wire nails. Why? Because the only way to bang a 4" nail in is to have the force acting along the length of the nail, exactly, otherwise it will bend. To achieve this the head of the hammer cold welds to the top of the nail, because it now can't slide the force will automatically act along the nail, so it goes in. You can buy tack hammers that also have a soft face for banging in tacks, but they are rare and I doubt any tool dealer would know what you are talking about. A tack can be 2" long and not much more than 1/16" diameter with a lost head. These hammers almost always have a cross pein, to allow you to start a 1/2" tack without mangling your fingers.

An engineer's hammer has a hardened face, it will ring when banged on an anvil, and is used for most everything else. It almost always has either a ball or cross pein on the opposite face.

Neither of these hammers are used to hit concrete, bricks etc. For that a lump hammer is used.
Not sure I understand the point here. Is it being suggested that some types of hammer should have rough faces? Neither the excessive use of exclamation marks nor the repitition of the word 'no' helps further my understanding.

Alan
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 2:32 pm   #51
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

With hammers for nailing, you don't much care about the finish on the face,

For general engineering, engineer's hammers are pretty hard faced and don't mark easily, but for generally 'persuading' things to move and for hitting chisels, do you care? The hammers I use with my anvil positively sing when struck. It's quite a surprising demo for visitors. I've never had to re-face one.

For sheet metal work, for panel-beating, the finish on hammer faces and dollies does matter. The hammers I have aren't particularly hard and I have re-polished some occasionally and my planishing hammers never get used for anything else.

Hammers are tools. Good tools make a big difference and some rte worth keeping in top condition for when you need them.

David
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 2:32 pm   #52
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

I remember going to a proper tool shop (this was long before the days of big DIY outlets) and asking for an engineer's hammer. I was told there was no such thing and what I needed was a ball pein or ball peen hammer, so that's what I bought. It lives in the workshop and is never used for banging in nails for which I use a claw hammer.

If I want to bend sheet metal in the vice I use a hide mallet.
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Old 24th Aug 2018, 2:38 pm   #53
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

No-one seems to have mentioned sheet-metal cutting saws. These are much better for cutting sheet metal in a straight line than a simple hacksaw, and don't have a limit to the length of cut, either. They look rather like a woodworker's saw (either cross-cut or rip) but use a hacksaw blade as the cutting part. Since they have the extra depth that a woodworker's saw has, they automatically help to keep the cut straight. Also, the lack of a frame means that the depth of cut is not limited.
Maybe they just aren't available these days, but I have one inherited from my father and it is really useful. It was made by Eclipse, as was a normal hacksaw also inherited from my father.
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 6:26 am   #54
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Well I've learned something new about Chinese screwdrivers, though I did know the different types. Don't get me started on using a hammer, you see some odd technique's when folk use em, like using any tool there's an art to it.

"No-one seems to have mentioned sheet-metal cutting saws." Know the ones Colin, they always looked a bit how ya doing to me and have never had success with trying to cut straight lines with an hacksaw, though that's been with a blade held in a rag. Saw, saw, saw, piiingggg!

A.
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 8:38 am   #55
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

This utube video shows a powered nibbler that looks very impressive. I'd like one but being American it could end up being expensive and attract import duties. Does anyone know if there's a British version.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LLBTyWFdkk

Jim
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Old 25th Aug 2018, 10:26 am   #56
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

I have to admit, one project of mine, a rebuild that turned into a ahem re-imagining of a 100W (Maplin, remember them?) MOSFET amp never got finished due to my re-imagining the chassis/box and coming up with a succession of elaborate designs.

It's still in bits in a box. I bought an amplifier from Amazon instead.

As others have implied, getting a really good result from metalwork is tough.
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Old 9th Sep 2018, 3:43 am   #57
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Default Re: Basic metalwork

To resurrect this thread with some practical information:-

https://www.armag.vk6uu.id.au/1998-may-AR.html

Starts at page 20 - Making Boxes with Ordinary Tools.

If you dig through the website, there are other articles in a similar vein.

It is not that long ago that this sort of skill was regarded as part of normal life.

Remember, many radio components also had to be made by hand, you couldn't walk into a shop and buy them off the shelf.
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