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Old 19th Jul 2018, 11:37 pm   #1
[ARAU]rt49
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Default Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Hi all,

This is my first valve radio. I bought it a couple days ago. The seller said it was the family radio, but the last time he saw it working was about 40 years ago.

I would appreciate any advice on how to proceed now. I have only removed the back panel, nothing else so far.

Should I remove and dust off the chassis?

Cheers
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 10:13 am   #2
paulsherwin
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

That is a Philips export set for the Australian market. Attractive set.

It will do no harm to vacuum out any loose dust, but I wouldn't try to deep clean the chassis, at least at this stage.

This is a live chassis set, with the metalwork connected to one side of the mains supply. You should take great care to ensure that the chassis is connected to mains neutral not live if any metalwork is exposed. Ideally you would power the set through an isolating transformer, but as a beginner you're unlikely to possess one.

This set is likely to be full of the notorious Philips 'black pitch' paper capacitors. I don't know how they age in the Queensland climate but in Europe they go very leaky. A photo of the underside of the chassis will allow us to advise you.

[Later] There's actually an entry for this model at Radiomuseum. It appears to have been made by Philips NZ rather than Philips Eindhoven. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philnz_bz267u.html
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:01 am   #3
David Simpson
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

ErasureHello again( would you like to give us a first name ? Seems a bit unfriendly to call you Cobber or Mate.)
You mentioned in your other Forum thread that you had some experience of repairing cars & bikes. Perhaps you have a modern basic Digital Multi Meter(DMM) for reading Voltage, Current & Resistance ? If not, best to get one. It'll need to have ranges which read up to 500V AC & DC, 10A AC & DC, and a range of resistances up to at least 10 Megohms. Most modern DMM's these days have a "Continuity" (short circuit) resistance range with a "Buzzer" facility.
The very first thing to do is carefully check the condition of the mains lead & plug. Like in a car, any sign of damage, perished insulation, etc., then it must be changed. Old two-core wiring is a no-no. It should be 3 core(I.E. has an "Earth wire"), and the plug must be fused. With a ONE AMP Fuse - nearly all table-top domestic valve radios draw less than half an amp from a 240V AC Mains supply. If you've not had any experience working with mains supplies, then now is the time to get a mate who has.
I haven't seen the circuit diagram of your radio, hopefully its not an AC/DC set. If the mains lead goes internally to a big lump of metal - called a transformer - then you're OK . If it is an AC/DC set, then I'd even advise someone with some basic electronics experience - don't touch it with a barge-pole, electricity-wise.

Regards, David

Last edited by David Simpson; 20th Jul 2018 at 11:02 am. Reason: Erasure
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:03 am   #4
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

It is an AC/DC live chassis set. You cannot use 3 core cable with a live chassis set.

Australian plugs are not fused.

You can work safely on a live chassis set, but it is essential to understand the dangers and take appropriate precautions.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:05 am   #5
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
There's actually an entry for this model at Radiomuseum. It appears to have been made by Philips NZ rather than Philips Eindhoven. https://www.radiomuseum.org/r/philnz_bz267u.html
Yes, the dial callsigns are New Zealand stations. Late 1950s maybe. I see 1YZ at 800 kHz; I think it was moved up to 860 kHz in the early 1960s, but my recollection is vague, so perhaps no newer than early 1960s.


Cheers,
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:13 am   #6
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

If the old two core wiring is good condition sheathed PVC, then it's good to go. If it's unsheathed PVC (twisted pair or figure of eight) then in good condition it's safe enough, just not up to modern regs (but then, neither is the set, anyway). If it's rubber insulated, best to replace it whatever its condition.

I may misremember, but weren't live chassis sets a no-no in Oz? This one has crept in as a personal import I guess.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 12:44 pm   #7
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Paul has hit the nail on the head. Until our Australian chum has acquired some safety & testing experience, then his Philips should be kept well away from a mains supply. Then, perhaps, under supervision, it could be powered up, if safe to do so. However, meantime he could learn some cabinet cleaning & restoration techniques with his radio. It might polish up a dream.

Regards, David
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 10:54 pm   #8
[ARAU]rt49
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

As Paul says, it is an AC/DC set and I don't have an isolating transformer. Should I get one?

I am attaching a picture of the underside of the chassis and one of the plug.

David, my first name is Diego. I didn't mean to be rude by not using it in my previous posts. I now see it's common practice to use first names in this forum.

I do have a digital multi-meter. This is the one. That's not to say I know how to use it though.

Thanks everyone for your replies.

Cheers,
Diego
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:19 pm   #9
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

That meter will be fine, though as you suggest you will need to know how to use it.

You don't need an isolating transformer, but as has been said, you need to be very, very careful to ensure that the chassis is connected to mains neutral not mains live. It's good practice to get into the habit of checking the chassis with a neon mains tester each time you apply power with the metalwork exposed. There are several threads about working on live chassis radios if you search the forum.

The capacitors in the under chassis photo aren't the 'black pitch' types found in European Philips sets of this era, but they are still likely to be leaky.
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Old 20th Jul 2018, 11:28 pm   #10
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

An isolation transformer will protect against one safety issue but even using one there are other safety problems that could give you an electric shock.
You must learn and use safe working practices.
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 12:05 am   #11
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Just my own tuppence worth, having survived stumbling my way into vintage equipment for a few years now: When you do apply power, do any tests very carefully, and I would advise against ANY prodding around under the chassis when power is applied. Safer still, adjust any controls while the power is off, then switch back on. As you learn more you can gain confidence and greater appreciate what it is you are doing

With regards the mains wiring, you're essentially talking about the difference between feeling a tingle if you do touch the chassis, VS one hell of a shock (if you're lucky!), or being found dead on the floor. Check once, check again, then check a third time that chassis is wired correctly. The old tip about keeping one hand in your pocket is also good one - you dont want to touch the chassis with one hand, and touch something with great potential with the other.

Even when switched off some capacitors can hold enough of a charge to at the very least p**s you off if you happen to touch them mistakenly, or much worse under the right circumstances. Those of us that can recount various jolts are the ones lucky enough to have lived to tell the tale. This may seem intimidating, but this stuff needs to be respected. We all make mistakes, you need several layers of protection to make sure a slight mishap doesnt end in tragedy
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 11:12 am   #12
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Hello Diego,
That DMM looks fine. The two-wire plug looks dangerous, lacking even a fuse. Perhaps, in Australia, you can buy fused adaptors. The underside shows a heap of "Waxies" - waxed capacitors. You'll learn from the Forum that everyone changes them as a matter of safety.
If you can make contact in the Brisbane area with an experienced vintage radio repair guy, he hopefully could point you in the direction of a 2nd hand fused Isolation Transformer, and a "Variac" - an adjustable mains transformer. If there are no local technical colleges who provide basic safety & testing courses, such a guy could possibly give you some coaching lessons.
Many old radios use the metal chassis as the negative (-ve) DC path, and for the negative or "low" side of heater volts, be it AC or DC. A two-wire AC/DC Radio's mains supply cable MUST have the AC Neutral(or DC -ve) connected to the chassis. The "Live" wire MUST go to the Rectifier circuitry, and what is known as the "Dropper" Resistor - a big vitreous clad tube-like resistor, usually 4" to 6" high. AC/DC sets are inherently dangerous, hence all the more reason that some of us recommend that you get some training.

Regards, David
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 11:22 am   #13
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Be aware that the RF filter tags will be live when switched on.

Lawrence.
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 11:23 am   #14
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

To repeat #4, no Australian plugs have fuses. Australian buildings are not wired with ring mains but with a number of spurs going to a central consumer unit. Presumably modern regs protect these with breakers.

I don't know if consumer unit RCD/GFI breakers are mandatory in Oz, but a plug in breaker would be a useful belt and braces approach to safety when working on an old radio.
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 1:48 pm   #15
David Simpson
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

It would seem that, as Paul says, Australian domestic mains supplies are pretty basic & not up to IET Regulations. All the more reason for Diego to get some safety & testing instruction ASAP. A fused or preferably an MCB'd supply to his proposed workshop area(shed, garage, loft, ?), and protection with an RCD is a must. Surely these can be sourced from DIY stores, or the internet, in Australia ?
The VRR&R Forum has a number of Australian members - come on cobbers - let us know, & advise Diego what steps can be taken over there to provide a safe working environment. Its pointless us Pomms banging on about safety, training, and safety equipment from 12000 miles away, if Australian electrical regulations are ****-poor.

Regards, David
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 2:01 pm   #16
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

The UK and Ireland are largely unique in using fused plugs and 30A ring mains.

Australian electrical regs are broadly comparable with those anywhere else. If the OP's installation is relatively recent it will be protected by MCBs and RCDs. If it is an older installation without an RCD in the consumer unit (like mine, installed in the early 80s) then a plug in RCD would be a good idea. This won't prevent electric shocks completely though, and other precautions and safe working practices should be used.
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Old 21st Jul 2018, 6:26 pm   #17
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Before you get around to applying power there will be a capacitor connected across the mains lead, possibly from the mains switch to chassis, this can be cut out and ignored for now, radio will work without it, leave it in and there is a good chance it will explode if it has not already done so. They are often found in two pieces.


John.
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Old 22nd Jul 2018, 9:05 am   #18
[ARAU]rt49
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

I really appreciate your tips getting me set up.

Just to add a bit more information, the house is supplied with ground rod, one RCD and a few MCBs.

Cheers,
Diego
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Old 22nd Jul 2018, 9:17 am   #19
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
It's good practice to get into the habit of checking the chassis with a neon mains tester each time you apply power with the metalwork exposed. There are several threads about working on live chassis radios if you search the forum.
Good advice, but one which made me smile as I recall as a first year apprentice, being advised to lightly brush the back of my hand against the chassis and see if there was a 'buzzing' feeling! It worked fine on a dry wooden floor, but I recall a different sensation when working on a damp concrete floor!

Les.
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Old 22nd Jul 2018, 9:33 am   #20
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Default Re: Need advice on first valve radio: Philips BZ267U



Once experienced, never forgotten (unless the memory dies with you)! BTDT.

Neon testers are quick and easy and have the advantage of being one handed to use but it's always worth checking a known live point first just to be sure...... they're not the most reliable of tools.
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