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Vintage Radio (domestic) Domestic vintage radio (wireless) receivers only. |
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22nd Jun 2019, 11:34 am | #1 |
Hexode
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 391
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Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Hello All
After treating a cabinet for woodworm holes, is it worthwhile putting the cabinet inside a sealed plastic bag for a few days so that the treatment soaks in and disperses itself into any spots that you've missed? 'Old' woodworm treatment liquid seemed to be much more volatile (from its smell) and I can imagine that if sealed in a bag, its vapour would spread itself into all nooks and crannies. Modern stuff seems to be much less volatile, hence why I'm wondering whether 'bagging' the cabinet nowadays is worthwhile. best regards ... Stef |
22nd Jun 2019, 12:12 pm | #2 |
Rest in Peace
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Matlock, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,378
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
I was under the impression that the woodworm treatment was dissolved in a petroleum solvent and that the vapour was not the active agent.
I use an old pump action oil can to inject into every hole I find. If the wood is riddled with woodworm, I soak it in fluid and let it dry then soak it again with 50/50 white spirit and boiled linseed oil. This will dry in a few weeks and strengthen the timber. I have never had worm reappear. I had a clock which was repaired and the wood treated by the repairer. He just soaked it in paraffin and gave an 80 year guarantee. Only 20 more to go! |
22nd Jun 2019, 1:43 pm | #3 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Hydrocarbon solvent woodworm treatments mostly went off the market a couple of years ago, regulations I think. Hydrocarbon solvents are better at penetrating wood than the water-based stuff you get these days .
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22nd Jun 2019, 2:52 pm | #4 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 901
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Effective methods are:
Submersion in paraffin, diesel etc for a few days Isolation in pure CO2 or any poisonous gas for a few days Freezing below -21C at least a day A couple of hours at more than 30 °C Blow torch entire insides and soak with woodworm killing fluid. Injection into flight holes is not effective. The grubs can be up to 3 years in the wood. Eggs can be laid in a flight hold, but cracks, seams and bare wood are used. |
22nd Jun 2019, 2:55 pm | #5 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 901
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
I bag, (sealed!) any unknown set that MIGHT have active woodworm to avoid spreading it in the spring when they take flight and breed. The adult beetles only live for a few days.
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22nd Jun 2019, 6:57 pm | #6 |
Hexode
Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Cirencester, Gloucestershire, UK.
Posts: 391
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Interesting that there are so many ways of killing the infestation.
To get back to my plastic bag question - looks like treating with killer and then leaving outside on a sunny day (like today) in a black plastic bag should do the trick. |
22nd Jun 2019, 7:54 pm | #7 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 901
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Delicate stuff, like a vintage violin, might even be treated with gamma radiation.
The treatment for a building with a lot of wood and infested with death watch beetle and woodworm is to "bag" the entire building for a few days to gas them! Also I've found filler gets sucked in slightly as it dries, so I now use cocktail sticks, forced in, snipped and then punched. |
25th Jun 2019, 3:40 am | #8 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 254
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
How about sealing in a black plastic bin bag containing moth balls (naphthalene marbles) and leaving outside on a warm sunny day to encourage maximum effect?
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Geoff. (BVWS Member) |
25th Jun 2019, 7:22 am | #9 | |
Octode
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Ely, Cambridgeshire, UK.
Posts: 1,967
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Quote:
which may end up being weeks |
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25th Jun 2019, 9:04 am | #10 |
Octode
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Leicester, Leics. UK.
Posts: 1,681
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Geoff, possibly napthalene may kill the active grubs, but I'd think it most unlikely it would kill off the eggs in the wood and so the next generation of emerging grubs.
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26th Jun 2019, 1:47 am | #11 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 254
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Good point. Not sure how long the incubation period is for woodworm, so it could take a long time to make sure that there are no more eggs not yet hatched. My biology is hopeless I'm afraid!
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Geoff. (BVWS Member) |
1st Jul 2019, 11:21 am | #12 |
Pentode
Join Date: Nov 2011
Location: Wigan, Greater Manchester, UK.
Posts: 147
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Paraffin brushed on is usually effective though it stinks for a while, renders the wood inedible to the beetles.
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1st Jul 2019, 8:18 pm | #13 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Cottingham, East Yorkshire, UK.
Posts: 5,736
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
This topic crops up at intervals on the forum and some explanation of the woodworm life cycle might be of interest and relevance in understanding what happens to old radio cabinets, and why, on the whole, it's pointless trying to eliminate what will most likely be a non-existent foe.
Woodworm holes aren't so much evidence of the presence of woodworm, rather, the absence. They’re the flight holes where the ‘worms’ have pupated into adult beetles and burrowed out of the timber – not into it, having quietly spent 3 years or more unnoticed, devouring it from the inside. They most likely departed decades ago. Yes, it is just possible if a radio has been stored in a damp shed or basement for some years until recently that it could still have larvae in it, though if the cabinet is peppered with flight holes it’s highly unlikely. If worried, then put the cabinet in a plastic bag and leave it for a couple of weeks to see if any ‘frass’ (the term for the wood dust which comes out of the flight holes, which is basically, the worm's excrement) is present, which would indicate that beetles are still emerging. While woodworm treatment of a woody cabinet will do no harm, it probably won’t do much good either, except to Rentokil's balance sheet. The larvae that caused the damage will have long gone, but true, in the highly unlikely event that there are still any larvae within, at least the wood of radio cabinets is thin, so the liquid will get to them. A bit of a pointless exercise in my view, but I guess many will think "It’s best to be on the safe side - it won’t do any harm and it might do some good". I've heard it said that putting a cabinet in a plastic bag in a freezer will do the trick. Well yes, if it's at least -20C and kept in the freezer for several weeks. The grubs have to survive in freezing temperatures in woods and forests, habitats where most of them spend their lives. In a cabinet with lots of flight holes the most serious aspect isn’t whether there may still be active larvae in it, but the fact that the wood no longer has any structural integrity. The fibres will have been destroyed and turned to dust, all the moisture sucked out, and though it’s often said in jest that ‘all that’s keeping the cabinet together is the worms holding hands’, that’s a good analogy. Sometimes the infestation might be limited to just one side or a top corner, and maybe the cabinet is cosmetically redeemable, perhaps by re-veneering in part if not in whole, but personally, I wouldn’t bother with such a set. Any infestation will almost certainly be due to the radio having been stored in damp conditions such as a shed or cellar, causing the wood to have a high moisture content. Like many insects, "woodworm", or the "common furniture beetle" ('anobium punctatum’ - the most common of four woodworming beetles in the UK), spends most of its life cycle as a maggot before pupating and emerging for its short adult life as a flying beetle. Adult female beetles lay their eggs in an environment which will offer the best chances of survival for their offspring, which means moist timber because the larvae need moisture to survive. They need at least 11 – 12% % moisture content – preferably 15 – 30%. What they like most of all is the sapwood of newly felled trees which has a very high moisture content. If construction timber has been stored in damp conditions it can become infested, but modern centrally heated homes have nothing in them that could attract adult beetles as the moisture content will be way too low. Many older homes which pre-date central heating will have some signs of past infestation, typically in floorboards. The wood-worming beetle’s lifecycle goes like this: The pregnant female starts the lifecycle by laying her eggs during April - August directly into the timber through cracks, in end grain and any holes and crevices. One beetle will lay from 20 - 60 eggs, on average, 28, and not necessarily all in one place. There will be no evidence of the eggs having been laid – entry holes for example. The female beetle lives for only 10 - 14 days; the male - whose only role in life is to mate with as many females as possible - lives for only 3 -4 days and doesn’t even eat, so the beetles themselves cause little or no direct damage to timber – it’s their offspring that are the culprits. After a few weeks the eggs hatch downwards into the timber and produce larvae - this is the worm stage of the lifecycle, and the larvae carry on in this phase for anything from 2 to 5 years, munching their way up and down inside the timber, but this goes on unseen as they don’t emerge, having no reason to until they pupate. It’s during this long phase of their lives that the structural damage is done, which is of course far more serious in load bearing structural timbers such as roof and floor timbers, than in radio cabinets. Towards the end of the woodworm beetle lifecycle, the larvae pupate from the larval stage into an adult beetle. That adult beetle then eats its way out through the surface of timber producing the round exit holes that we see as evidence of the infestation, which has taken place unseen over many years. Once the beetles emerge from the timber, in their brief life of just a few days, they meet, mate, lay their eggs on the nearest piece of wood with a high moisture content to continue the life cycle. Then they die. It’s a common but mistaken belief that something such as a radio cabinet, which has had/maybe still has woodworm in it, will go on to cause an infestation in other timber or furniture. That’s an understandable belief – after all, it is called the ‘furniture beetle’. But given that what the beetles want for the survival of their eggs is moist nutritious timber, that won’t be found in most homes. The beetles are flying around everywhere from April to August and if you have any such timber, then yes, they might take a fancy to it. Why attack old radios? From a beetle's point of view - why not, if the radio has been stored in a damp shed or cellar for years and has a high moisture content? It’s unlikely that they’d lay their eggs on the outside of a wooden cabinet, but there will be plenty of crevices and openings for ventilation etc in the back, (that’s if it has a back!), for the beetle to get into and to lay her eggs. The beetle doesn't burrow into the timber - that happens when the eggs hatch into grubs. I’ve attached three pics below to show the moisture content (or rather lack of it), in timber around my home. The first pic is of a piece of nominally 3” x 2” ‘CLS’ timber (Canadian Lumber Stock) bought from B&Q in January. As can be seen, the moisture content is just 11% - too low to be of interest to furniture beetles - not that there would be any beetles around to lay eggs in January anyway. But let’s hypothetically suppose I brought an old cabinet into the house just at the precise moment that beetles emerged and started flying around indoors looking for a home for their eggs. Where? In the bookshelf maybe? Errm, no – as pic 2 shows, 0.7% moisture content. Might they go for my cherished radio collection then? No luck there either – the 'WCR' plywood cabinet in an unheated bedroom, has just 0.5% moisture content. I'm not an entomologist and I'm not holding myself out to be an expert, but as a woodturner and woodworker as well as a radio restorer, I have more than a passing interest in this topic. As secretary of the local woodturning society I've lost count of the number of times I've politely declined offers of timber from well meaning people, whether felled trees or woodturning blanks, showing signs of infestation. I hope these rather ramblings notes are of interest, and perhaps some reassurance. This link might be also of interest, albeit it’s about construction timber – not furniture. https://www.buildingconservation.com...m/woodworm.htm
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David. BVWS Member. G-QRP Club member 1339. |
1st Jul 2019, 8:29 pm | #14 |
Hexode
Join Date: Aug 2009
Location: Liverpool, Merseyside, UK.
Posts: 254
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
Brilliant summary and explanation of the life cycle. Thanks David.
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Geoff. (BVWS Member) |
1st Jul 2019, 9:34 pm | #15 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 13,454
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
The best way with woodworm killer fluid is to follow the manufactures instructions, unfortunately in many cases they will be in conflict with the average persons idea of a proper application.
Lawrence. |
1st Jul 2019, 9:56 pm | #16 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2012
Location: Wiltshire, UK.
Posts: 13,951
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
As well as going for the wood, woodworm larvae enjoy dining upon the various glues used in cabinet-making! I remember scrapping an old radio cabinet where the veneer could be peeled-off easily in entire sheets because the worms had spent their time chomping their way along the glue-saturated wood at the interface between the veneer and the underlying carcase.
(In the wild they do the same at the interface between tree-bark and the underlying wood). As to worm-treatments, I have recently been using this stuff: https://www.screwfix.com/p/sika-sika...ear-5ltr/66962 on my summerhouse. It's water-based (they all are now) and seems to soak-in well to damaged wood even if it's damp. One thing to consider in any treatment is whether it will cause damage to the radio-case itself. I'm thinking here about a case that's glued (or veneered) using adhesives that may be weakened or dissolved by the treatment. No point killing the worms if in doing so the killer causes the veneer to lift or the entire cabinet to disassemble itself! |
2nd Jul 2019, 12:53 am | #17 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jan 2012
Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK.
Posts: 5,316
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
I did read in a book that the glue of some pre-war plywood is so nourishing that the larval stage can be completed in only a year.
I did stock up on solvent-based Cuprinol while it was still on sale, but have used it all up now. Have anyone had any problems using water-based stuff on pre-was plywood? Wood usually expands when wet and I would have expected plywood, other than marine ply, to distort when soaked in water. I don't know if Rentokil for use on furniture is still solvent-based. It was the last time I looked, but that was a couple of years ago. |
2nd Jul 2019, 12:34 pm | #18 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Cornwall, UK.
Posts: 13,454
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
The sapwood is high in starch, some glues might have been too, that's what the beasties like, a lot of plywood used in the construction of receiver cabinets etc would have been made from veneers that contained sapwood, which quite often, in the form of dimensioned timber would have had a lower commercial value due to dead knots, insect damage, blue stain, cracks etc.
Speaking from my own location and observations working as a Sawyer converting sawlogs into dimensioned timber the only wood boring larvae/beasties that I noticed doing that job were bark beetle, pinhole borer, wood wasp and the type of woodworm that's been discussed, the most common was bark beetle and pinhole borer, less common was wood wasp and the least common was woodworm, the attacks seemed to vary according to the species (talking softwood here) Bark beetle and pinhole borer, Sitka Spruce for both and occasionally Larch for the latter. Wood wasp, mainly Scots Pine, Douglas Fir, Corsican Pine and Spruce, as larvae in the timber and as fully formed wood wasps hovering around the sawlog piles. Woodworm, In various species but mostly in Sitka Spruce, that was the species I sawed up the most. The type of timber protection I used the most was done by pressure treatment (Tanalizing) that included waterproof (the glue) plywood as well. The best species for the uptake and retention of the active ingredients was Scots Pine without doubt, still used for poles by the electric and 'phone utilities etc, their pole treatment was based on Creosote. The biggest beastie wood boring holes I came across when sawmilling were probably caused by some kind of marine borer and were found in deck/wreck timber, that's deck cargo that's been washed overboard or from a ship wreck such as was the Cecil Japan, I was there that morning at the cliff edge spotting for timber (as were others) but that stories not for here. For home use such as for furniture etc I always used stuff from Cuprinol, giving the wood a good dose, seems to work ok. Lawrence. |
2nd Jul 2019, 2:43 pm | #19 |
Heptode
Join Date: Dec 2014
Location: Limerick, Ireland.
Posts: 901
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Re: Woodworm treatment in a plastic bag
This one had the larva waving at me:
https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/ev...pair_ca.html#1 A Pye /Invicta completely fell to bits due to glue softening: https://www.radiomuseum.org/forum/in...led_vicki.html The Mid West of Ireland can be rather damp, as can be my workshop. The attic and house is very dry. If ALL the hole are dark, I assume an old infestation and probably not a problem. If the holes are bright then there may be more that might take flight in the spring. |