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Old 18th Apr 2019, 5:20 pm   #1
martin.m
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Default Shure V15 cartridge problem

This may seem a silly question. While sorting out my collection of audio bits and pieces, I found a V15 type ll cartridge with one channel intermittently open circuit. I know some people take crystal cartridges apart and repair them. Is this possible with a magnetic one, or are there companies that offer a repair service? My first instinct was to throw it in the bin but has anyone seen how much they sell for secondhand?

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 5:58 pm   #2
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

First, don't bin it. Second, this is a known, although fairly rare, fault with Shures - the recommended cure in period was to run some solder into the hollow cartridge pins. Not without risk, nor to be attempted by the faint-hearted or without heatsinks.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 7:24 pm   #3
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

There are professional repairers. The Cartridge Man https://www.thecartridgeman.com/index.htm is one and I suspect there are others.

Cheers,

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Old 18th Apr 2019, 9:57 pm   #4
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Magnetic cartridges are fairly robust things (once the stylus is safely removed) and should have no problem withstanding careful soldering.

Use 22-gauge tin/lead solder if available, a temperature-controlled iron (a chisel tip will work better than a pointed one) and angle the cartridge so the pins are sloping down, away from the cartridge. The solder should be drawn up into the pin by capillary action. Try to get as little solder as possible on the outside of the pin; you don't want to make it too fat for the crimp tags to go back on again.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 10:53 pm   #5
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ted Kendall View Post
First, don't bin it. Second, this is a known, although fairly rare, fault with Shures - the recommended cure in period was to run some solder into the hollow cartridge pins. Not without risk, nor to be attempted by the faint-hearted or without heatsinks.
Actually, there was a manufacturing fault or omission on many Shure cartridges, they forgot to apply any solder at all to the pins. I have seen many. So they work for a while when new, but after a while they go intermittent as the wire is just sitting inside the hollow pin oxidizes. It might have been that they intended it to be a contact in there without solder for many before they realized the error of their ways, if they were worried that the heat could damage the cartridge or pin mounts, if that was the case it was a very unreliable idea. Later Shure themselves soldered them.
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Old 18th Apr 2019, 11:01 pm   #6
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Yes - I heard the same thing.
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 7:59 am   #7
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

The inside of the V15II cartridge can be gently removed and replaced with one from any M75 or M91. They are the same electrically, although I'd swap like for like, a Type 2 for a type 2 V15II etc. I have done this in the past and it is very easy so long as you are careful. As it ages the glue holding the innards to the can seems to give in quite quickly.

I believe that the V15 cartridge innards were selected from the best examples off the production line. The original V15 is the same as the M44/55 series, the V15II the M75/91 series and the V15III the M95 series. Otherwise as far as I know they are identical. But if anyone has better information about this I stand to be corrected.
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 7:03 pm   #8
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Hi Martin,
I had a similar problem with mine but was able to put it right with minimal risk.
First and foremost use your DMM to identify which pole is open circuit. The type of repair is then dependent upon whether or not the end of the terminal is open or otherwise.
My terminal was open which allowed me to find a suitable piece of wire to insert as a reasonably tight fit. I then checked the Ohmic value which from memory is circa 1300 Ohms (each coil) and in my case the wire provided continuity of circuit.
I then removed the wire and cut it to a length to lie flush with the end of the terminal and re-inserted it.
The beauty about this type of repair is the smidgeling of solder and time to apply it required to fix the wire and its extremity to other soldered connections on the cartridge.

There may be some form of trial and error to determine with pole connector is at fault.
Good luck
Joe
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Old 19th Apr 2019, 9:51 pm   #9
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Thank you for your replies. I like the idea of inserting a piece of wire into each pin then soldering. It's the red/green side which is faulty. Don't Shure make cartridges any more? The V15 ll is missing it's stylus and the only new ones I can find are aftermarket types. Why are V15s so highly regarded? Is the "magic" in the cartridge body or in the stylus? I intend to try out this cartridge (if it can be fixed) in my home system. A little audiophoolery is fine by me, as long as the costs are minimal

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Old 20th Apr 2019, 6:31 am   #10
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Shure are now out of the cartridge and stylus business. I love Shure cartridges and after 40+ years of using them, from the M3d up to the V15III my own view is that there is no "magic" to the V15 other than marketing. As I said before, I believe that the best cartridge "innards" were taken off the production line and put into V15 housings and there ends any difference.

A V15II is the same as an M75ED or M91ED, OEM Pacific Electric M73PED, Audiotronics AMC70ED, Realistic RS1000ED et al. I have examples of each. The stylus cantilever, suspension and tip are the determining factors and they are identical, apart from external dressings, in all these models.

In their original form these cartridges remain excellent today. Shure have not made styli for them for over a decade but that isn't a problem as there a range of aftermarket alternatives. There are low cost functional replacements and there are upgrades, many of which bring the V15 bang up to date. Vendors such as Turntable Needles (USA) or Pickupnaalden (Holland) carry a range, including 78rpm. In the UK, Expert Stylus Company will retip an assembly with their Paratrace stylus and there is the Japanese Jico SAS assembly.

I use Jico SAS styli in a V15III, V15II and M75HE and they have brought significant benefits in terms of reduced surface noise and extra detail that the original Shures, good as they are, do not.

Anyway, I'm interested to learn how you get on.

Good luck.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 8:03 am   #11
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

The V15 isn't the same as an M75ED.

They may start the same, but if you buy an M75, you don't have a chance of getting one of the best ones. They were all weeded out and flogged-off as V15s

A selection process doesn't just create a flow of selected better performers, it also puts a dink in the middle of the population density of the base model.

Surveying a large population of parts and finding an M-shaped distribution of a parameter can be a clue to the best ones having been selected out.

David
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 8:22 am   #12
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Won't this depend on whether the "best" parts are in the middle of the characteristics spread?

For resistor tolerance, say, the M shaped distribution would result but for "goodness" I would expect the leftovers to be skewed to the side- a sort of low pass filer effect.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 9:35 am   #13
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Quote:
Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler View Post
... A selection process doesn't just create a flow of selected better performers, it also puts a dink in the middle of the population density of the base model ...
There can be a variant of this if you buy valves from a retailer who offers matched pairs, or quads. The single valves are sometimes cheaper and you might think you could buy two of those and trust to luck for a match. But of course it's easier to find matches for valves near the centre of the distribution. So when the retailer's matching exercise is over the remaining singles will contain a disproportionately large number of outlying ones and the chances of a match between any two of them will be correspondingly reduced.

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Old 20th Apr 2019, 10:03 am   #14
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

The core of the V15/3 is laminated, that of the /2 is solid, this in the interests of removing the mid-range dip endemic in moving magnet designs of the time.

The V15/3 was so good it became the Aunt Sally of the subjectivist lobby, one of the dealers in the vanguard of the movement describing it as "terrible" in his advertsing. If they knock you that much, you must be doing something right...

I was disappointed by the V15/4, but the /5 was and remains a joy. Direct aftermarket replacements for the beryllium cantilever aren't available, as far as I know, but so far my couple of originals are OK. It's still my preferred cartridge for vinyl transcription, although the ADC 25/26 runs it close on many fronts and has got me out of trouble a few times, although it's a fractious beast compared to the Shure.
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 10:22 am   #15
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

I suppose the current aftermarket stylus people don't want to get involved with the issues around working in beryllium.

B&O had a boron cantilever in one of their cartridges.... MMC20CL if my memory is right.

David
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Old 20th Apr 2019, 10:00 pm   #16
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

V15/3 and M75 generate different output voltages, i'd be surprised if they were just divided up on quality. I use both as my regular players with jico styli, they do not sound the same.
That said.. i've got several M75s and one of them is distinctly better than the rest, there was clearly a range of performance to be had.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 12:07 am   #17
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

They would - the M75 is the V15/2 generator, the M95 is the V15/3.
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 9:07 am   #18
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Astonishing that Shure got entirely out of the cartridge business, during the major boom in vinyl sales.

The beryllium tube cantilever was a real miniature tour de force. For anyone interested in how they made this the patent is a fascinating read - tiny tubular jigs, inert atmosphere annealing ovens, adhesive bonding of the overlap, how they crush the end and drill it for the stylus.

I've uploaded a few more interesting Shure patents relevant to the IV and V

Craig
Attached Files
File Type: pdf Thin wall Be.pdf (339.2 KB, 137 views)
File Type: pdf Stylus protection system.pdf (477.3 KB, 112 views)
File Type: pdf SIV stylus damper.pdf (568.0 KB, 109 views)
File Type: pdf Brush.pdf (867.0 KB, 119 views)
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 10:29 am   #19
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Some processes are possible only with specialist machinery, tooling, jigs and this sort of stuff can be expensive. That translates into a production process becoming a financial burden unless there is adequate turnover to pay for it, its upkeep and the floor area/light/heat needed. So firms drop out when some product is falling low enough in sales to turn it into a loss. Where the profit/loss threshold lies depends on the processes and the machinery.

Hand-made things have quite different economics, depending on the availability and capacity of appropriately skilled people.

There have been changes. Lathes used to be operated by craftsmen and could scale down to very low throughputs. Along came cam-operated automatic lathes. Faster, cheaper but a devil to change to different parts to be manufactured. Economic quantities skyrocketed. Then along came CNC and versatility caught back up. Some of the generalised machining centres have reduced econoomic quantities still further. Making highly specialist parts like cantilevers etc fall outside the range trampled by the CNC makers.

Things are on the change again, 3D printers open up manufacturing of 1-off parts. Laser sintering opens up metal parts made this way. I suppose 3D printing the parts of your own cartridge might hitch a ride on the back of 3D printing moving into jewellery.

The makers of 3D printers need to see enough of a market to scale machines down to make tiny parts.

A less-tractable limitation are changes in liability and simply fear of litigation. ROHS. Some industries are allowed to use lead/tin solder. The unleaded stuff is not considered reliable enough for safety-of-life equipment. If you are in one of these fields, you find subcontractors reluctant to maintain a lead solder process A) because demand is now very low, B) through fear of being sued by an employee is there is, say, a child born with a defect. There may be no connection, but the entanglements are real and scary.

If the vinyl revolution persists, there is a need for decent cartridges. At the moment ADC and Ortofon are holding the fort. I suppose the one-man esoteric moving coil firms can keep going, but I suspect their wonders were more imagined than real. Maybe their market segment will keep them going.

Shure pulled out for a reason

David
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Old 21st Apr 2019, 6:00 pm   #20
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Default Re: Shure V15 cartridge problem

Finally, some time to myself and I have repaired the Shure by inserting fine pieces of wire into the hollow pins then carefully soldering. Both channels now read around 630 Ohms but I've not been able to listen yet as I don't have a suitable stylus.

Thank you all for your comments and advice, I now know a lot more about the Shure range of cartridges. My home system uses an M95ED, given to me by a friend who was forever upgrading his system. Could this be regarded as a non audiophile version of the V15 type 3?

Richard, thanks for your tip about removing the cartridge innards. This one came apart by itself.

Ted, you mention that many early 1970s MM cartridges suffered from a mid-range dip. Back then I always thought that records played on FM radio had a better balance of sound with vocals more "forward" than on my home system that used an M75ED. Did broadcasters find a way round the problem in those days? A friend of mine worked at BBC Radio Cleveland (as it then was). They used Decca Deram cartridges on air.

Regards
Martin
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