Shoe box versus Cloud Storage - Page 3 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

bluepilot · 20th Mar 2018, 10:11 am

I'm always dubious about cloud storage. I don't see why Google et al should be able to get their hands on my pesonal stuff. On the other hand; I have my own personal website with unlimited storage and I upload stuff to that. I assume the hosting provider will deal with backups for the forseeable future. That may not be true as anyone who remembers Geocities will testify but at least I pay for my storage so there is some hope.

As for digital storage, I have a collection of old floppy drives just in case I ever need to read an ancient disk. Even so I have a commercial DVD of some magazines which uses a forgotten format which no-one is able to decode anymore. The company that produced it has disappeared. If you want to archive stuff digitally you need to make regular transfers to modern media.

I have a box of photos my father took in India during the war. They are just as good as the day he took them and unless I want to e-mail them somewhere I don't need digital copies.

MrBungle · 20th Mar 2018, 11:24 am

Never trust a hosting company with backups. They are the worst from experience.

Also let's not forget this: https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-cut-microsoft

And by association, https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...14/email.yahoo

dave walsh · 20th Mar 2018, 1:40 pm

I've read something recently about increased capability in terms of solid state storage ie producing a "Hard Drive" without any moving parts to wear out, be corrupted or misaligned. Does this seem viable and would it be subject to drawbacks? Or am I making it all up

Dave W

MrBungle · 20th Mar 2018, 2:43 pm

You're right. SSDs are around in force now. I don't have any computers without them. They are faster and more physically robust but not necessarily better for long term storage. They have merely a different set of problems. It's a good trade off if you want speed though which makes the largest difference to the end user.

A few problems they suffer with:

1. Cell leakage. Each SSD cell encodes a number of bits based on the amount of charge stored in each cell (using the water analogy, think of each cell as a bucket of water). Really expensive SSDs the bucket is either full or empty so any leakage is insignificant. As cost goes down, the bucket has many more states of fullness which leads to reduced cost and greater error. At the bottom end, slow leakage of electrons away from the cells can actually cause bits to flip. This limits 99.999% reliable storage retention to just over 2 years (yes it's that low) on consumer TLC drives.

2. The cells wear out. Eventually the cells degrade in charge storage ability due to the above and migration.

3. Software problems. This is much more of a short term problem. SSDs have a complex embedded computer and program in them that manages wear leveling i.e decommissioning cells which are due to wear out etc and moving the data around. These have historically been buggy as hell and resulted in problems. Less of a problem now fortunately! Also this software uses the SSD itself to store its information on so it can shoot itself or a prematurely failed cell can take the entire drive out instantly and irrecoverably.

Your SSD will withstand heavy physical abuse and a right hammering in the short term but if you put it on the shelf for 10 years and come back, you might be surprised to find it doesn't work any more or some files aren't how you left them. We've had this for drives less than 5 years old before.

DLT (Digital Linear Tape) is the only medium there is any long term storage data for at the moment. That has a shelf life of about 30 years.

emeritus · 20th Mar 2018, 2:46 pm

,Still advisible to make multiple backups. By the late 1970's device sizes has got so small that the logical state of the cells of some types of solid state memory could be flipped by the release of electrons caused by the passage of a cosmic ray through silicon. Electronics for use in space has to be radiation-hardened to cope with this sort of thing.

The copies of the programs I wrote on punch cards and paper tape in the 1960's are still in perfect condition, but such media are hardly practical for the volume of data we need to store these days.

MrBungle · 20th Mar 2018, 2:57 pm

IBM 1360 is a good compromise

dave walsh · 20th Mar 2018, 5:37 pm

Ok thanks for those responses and the "primer" Mr B! I thought it might be too good to be true in storage terms but maybe later? We've not quite reached the first Superman film yet [where everything is embedded in coloured crystals but maybe not Kryptonite]. Don't get the idea that I've got any time for the current crop of comic hero films though

On a previous thread one chap recommended a hammer and chisel to put coding onto granite but that was long term in the wrong way. Working on the basis that more advanced systems are always around for a long time before they come on the market [eg the Stealth Fighter] it makes you wonder what's running at the moment?

Dave

dseymo1 · 20th Mar 2018, 5:54 pm

It occurs to me that for archival purposes data might be stored as a glass hologram. Is there any such practical technology?

MrBungle · 20th Mar 2018, 6:47 pm

University of Southampton is already working on it!

https://www.southampton.ac.uk/news/2...ge-update.page

Quote:

Originally Posted by dave walsh

Ok thanks for those responses and the "primer" Mr B! I thought it might be too good to be true in storage terms but maybe later? We've not quite reached the first Superman film yet [where everything is embedded in coloured crystals but maybe not Kryptonite]. Don't get the idea that I've got any time for the current crop of comic hero films though

On a previous thread one chap recommended a hammer and chisel to put coding onto granite but that was long term in the wrong way. Working on the basis that more advanced systems are always around for a long time before they come on the market [eg the Stealth Fighter] it makes you wonder what's running at the moment?

Dave

Best solution is use both. Use SSD and back it up weekly onto mechanical desk (spinning rust!). That covers both bases. Go fast and safe at the same time, at most risking a week of data loss (which is quite unlikely). I throw my SSDs and HDDs onto ebay every 2 years and buy new ones but my reliability requirements may be above others' as no computer is no food for me.

Most embedded systems of that class are running static RAM, mask programmed ROMs etc. I did a little bit of work in that sector for a bit and some of it really is 1980s grade computing. When I left in 2002 they were just about starting to build on PowerPC which was 1993 tech. 10-15 years behind the curve always.

20th Mar 2018, 10:11 am	#41
bluepilot Heptode Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Duffort, Gers, France Posts: 714	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage I'm always dubious about cloud storage. I don't see why Google et al should be able to get their hands on my pesonal stuff. On the other hand; I have my own personal website with unlimited storage and I upload stuff to that. I assume the hosting provider will deal with backups for the forseeable future. That may not be true as anyone who remembers Geocities will testify but at least I pay for my storage so there is some hope. As for digital storage, I have a collection of old floppy drives just in case I ever need to read an ancient disk. Even so I have a commercial DVD of some magazines which uses a forgotten format which no-one is able to decode anymore. The company that produced it has disappeared. If you want to archive stuff digitally you need to make regular transfers to modern media. I have a box of photos my father took in India during the war. They are just as good as the day he took them and unless I want to e-mail them somewhere I don't need digital copies. __________________ Stuart The golden age is always yesterday - Asa Briggs

20th Mar 2018, 11:24 am	#42
MrBungle Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: London, UK. Posts: 3,687	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage Never trust a hosting company with backups. They are the worst from experience. Also let's not forget this: https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...-cut-microsoft And by association, https://www.theguardian.com/technolo...14/email.yahoo

20th Mar 2018, 1:40 pm	#43
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage I've read something recently about increased capability in terms of solid state storage ie producing a "Hard Drive" without any moving parts to wear out, be corrupted or misaligned. Does this seem viable and would it be subject to drawbacks? Or am I making it all up Dave W

20th Mar 2018, 2:43 pm	#44
MrBungle Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: London, UK. Posts: 3,687	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage You're right. SSDs are around in force now. I don't have any computers without them. They are faster and more physically robust but not necessarily better for long term storage. They have merely a different set of problems. It's a good trade off if you want speed though which makes the largest difference to the end user. A few problems they suffer with: 1. Cell leakage. Each SSD cell encodes a number of bits based on the amount of charge stored in each cell (using the water analogy, think of each cell as a bucket of water). Really expensive SSDs the bucket is either full or empty so any leakage is insignificant. As cost goes down, the bucket has many more states of fullness which leads to reduced cost and greater error. At the bottom end, slow leakage of electrons away from the cells can actually cause bits to flip. This limits 99.999% reliable storage retention to just over 2 years (yes it's that low) on consumer TLC drives. 2. The cells wear out. Eventually the cells degrade in charge storage ability due to the above and migration. 3. Software problems. This is much more of a short term problem. SSDs have a complex embedded computer and program in them that manages wear leveling i.e decommissioning cells which are due to wear out etc and moving the data around. These have historically been buggy as hell and resulted in problems. Less of a problem now fortunately! Also this software uses the SSD itself to store its information on so it can shoot itself or a prematurely failed cell can take the entire drive out instantly and irrecoverably. Your SSD will withstand heavy physical abuse and a right hammering in the short term but if you put it on the shelf for 10 years and come back, you might be surprised to find it doesn't work any more or some files aren't how you left them. We've had this for drives less than 5 years old before. DLT (Digital Linear Tape) is the only medium there is any long term storage data for at the moment. That has a shelf life of about 30 years.

20th Mar 2018, 2:46 pm	#45
emeritus Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Brentwood, Essex, UK. Posts: 5,337	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage ,Still advisible to make multiple backups. By the late 1970's device sizes has got so small that the logical state of the cells of some types of solid state memory could be flipped by the release of electrons caused by the passage of a cosmic ray through silicon. Electronics for use in space has to be radiation-hardened to cope with this sort of thing. The copies of the programs I wrote on punch cards and paper tape in the 1960's are still in perfect condition, but such media are hardly practical for the volume of data we need to store these days. Last edited by emeritus; 20th Mar 2018 at 2:56 pm. Reason: )

20th Mar 2018, 2:57 pm	#46
MrBungle Dekatron Join Date: Jun 2016 Location: London, UK. Posts: 3,687	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage IBM 1360 is a good compromise

20th Mar 2018, 5:37 pm	#47
dave walsh Dekatron Join Date: Jan 2006 Location: Ramsbottom (Nr Bury) Lancs or Bexhill (Nr Hastings) Sussex. Posts: 5,817	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage Ok thanks for those responses and the "primer" Mr B! I thought it might be too good to be true in storage terms but maybe later? We've not quite reached the first Superman film yet [where everything is embedded in coloured crystals but maybe not Kryptonite]. Don't get the idea that I've got any time for the current crop of comic hero films though On a previous thread one chap recommended a hammer and chisel to put coding onto granite but that was long term in the wrong way. Working on the basis that more advanced systems are always around for a long time before they come on the market [eg the Stealth Fighter] it makes you wonder what's running at the moment? Dave Last edited by dave walsh; 20th Mar 2018 at 5:48 pm.

20th Mar 2018, 5:54 pm	#48
dseymo1 Retired Dormant Member Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Shropshire, UK. Posts: 3,051	Re: Shoe box versus Cloud Storage It occurs to me that for archival purposes data might be stored as a glass hologram. Is there any such practical technology?