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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 6:40 am   #1
Martin Bush
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Default Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

I thought a few members might be interested in this story...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:16 am   #2
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology ot working

Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Bush View Post
I thought a few members might be interested in this story...

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180
In My opinion!
It is more likely an excuse for poor transmission line installation. (Telephone wires)
It took all that time to use a spectrum analyzer rubbish, a medium wave radio could have done it long before.
Openreach are not noted for forward thinking!
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:18 am   #3
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology ot working

It would have been interesting if they’d said how ‘old’ the TV was, maybe not what we’d describe as old.

John
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:22 am   #4
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology ot working

Quote:
Originally Posted by stitch1 View Post
It would have been interesting if they’d said how ‘old’ the TV was, maybe not what we’d describe as old.

John
Probably anything over 10 years old. Interesting piece of information but far too little substance in the article or references to be of use.
Nevertheless well worth posting the link.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 7:34 am   #5
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology ot working

This is another report of the incident, it adds a few more details but not what type of TV. It does show a TV but clearly this is a stock photo.

https://www.dailypost.co.uk/news/nor...welsh-18972639

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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:14 am   #6
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology ot working

It was probably a switch mode power supply in the TV injecting noise/spikes back down the mains, which may well have been run close to a telephone line, which in turn coupled into many other phone lines. Ignorance of EMC is rife even amongst so-called professionals.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:45 am   #7
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

The stock photo in the Daily Post is not even a UK set, probably a US model!!
It is amazing to me that it took Openreach so long to carry out some basic checks, poor villagers having to wait 18 months for a resolution.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 8:53 am   #8
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

"Old TV" is a very elastic definition and would likely have a somewhat different meaning when aimed at the general public rather than folk here. It's possible that it was a late-in-the-day big CRT TV with a cheap, tired and failing PSU (also I think folk here would concede that scan coils can radiate a pervasive rasp a surprisingly long way up the spectrum), maybe an ageing plasma set (electrically noisy in the best of circumstances) again with a less-than-optimum PSU. Maybe even a relatively up-to-date flat panel format with a PSU whose filtering wasn't up-to-scratch. I can't help feeling that there may have been a degree of deflection (no pun intended!) over a mediocre broadband service in the first place.

There's also the question of who fed what story to who, and decided that a problem like this should be pushed up the national national news agenda- are we to expect another excitable "buy new" marketing drive in a green wrapping "'cos you might be upsetting your neighbours"?

I hope no-one here is cringeing guiltily....
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:03 am   #9
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

This report of the same incident has clearly been generated by a paraphrasing robot using a report from another site, probably done so as to look as though they written it thenselves. Trouble is they have paraphased the acronym SHINE as GLOW.

https://breakingtechnews.net/2020/09...for-18-months/

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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:10 am   #10
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Yes Chriswood1900. That will be the NTSC only Sony KV1201, or very similar, modified to work a PIL CRT and of course the German PAL colour system. The owner must have been a real engineer to have achieved such a transformation and indeed with all the wizardry those changes required would have a view on how he, alone, messed up the broadband supplied by Openreach.

another Chris
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:10 am   #11
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Been developing spectrum analysers and EMC measuring receivers for national spectrum management agencies for decades. Never heard of 'SHINE' before.

OK, somebody had an unfiltered SMPS, or maybe a tuner with an RF stage taking off in the 2.4 GHz band.... No world-shattering news.

As said above, the real story is of how long it took them to find it and therefore how incompetent they must be.

David
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:21 am   #12
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

In fairness, if they spend all day putting cable onto the tops of poles, driving a SA is probably a bit out of their comfort zone...
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:42 am   #13
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

My money is on it an older Plasma tv. I have about three around me in neighbouring houses and the levels of noise and interference they pump out both direct and down the mains is horrendous. They fill the Medium wave band, and the lower frequency short wave bands, with high level carriers which can be heard in the background of even the stronger AM radio stations. The levels of interference and noise radiated by these Plasma TV's is far worse than any CRT TV I have come across. Its for this reason that some countries have banned them for domestic use.
Medium Wave frequencies are pretty much the same as the ADSL broadband frequencies that Openreach use down their copper lines between the local exchange and the customers house and can be prone to external interference especially if overhead feeds are used.
As these Plasma sets age I have noticed that the level of noise and interference seems to be increasing probably because of electrolytic capacitors drying out or the visual display being driven harder as the set ages.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:42 am   #14
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

They probably had to call in a 'specialist' to operate the spectrum analyser...! As said above, a MW radio could probably have done the job.....
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:50 am   #15
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

Hi all,
I read this article and was disturbed by:-
"We'd just advise the public to make sure that their electric appliances are properly certified and meet current British standards,"

How are the public supposed to know? Are they supposed to see when the next EMC directive comes into place and then go out and buy a new TV?
Is using an old non-compliant electrical product a crime? If so then most of us here will be locked up maybe just shamed.

You do have to have sympathy for the set's owner. They would have not known their set was a problem. I assume that we are talking about a failing switched mode PSU or EHT leakage as most properly working sets should not cause such an issue.
Then again maybe was it a TV22 with the line output cover removed or worse still a TSC48 with the cover mssing from the RF EHT unit!

I once had a Ferguson 941T from about 1949/50. I found that it was interfering with my Freeview reception. I couldn't find a fault as such in that the set was basically working as designed, it was due to the HF oscillations of the blocking oscillator. Swapping the EF91 line oscillator valve for another one made the problem go away, but presumably merely shifted the interfernce to somewhere else on the UHF spectrum. Maybe blocking oscillators need to be banned...

Cheers
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 9:57 am   #16
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

A few years back I had a problem of losing internet every night a few minutes either side of 9pm. Toing and froing between Plusnet and BT took several months of passing the buck. I contacted neighbours and others had the same problem. Eventually a special investigation was launched and two BT engineers arrived at about 7.30. Tea and biscuits were enjoyed whilst we had a chat. I had my router stats running on the PC and at about 9 PM, the signal was lost. They went outside with a MW radio tuned around 600khz and half an hour later returned, telling me it was a lady about 10 doors away whose PC SMPS was wiping everything out. She had often wondered why her broadband never worked as it should they told me! A new PSU and everything was OK again. I have since used a MW radio to DF and find that my own Plusnet router MPS was causing similar problems. I replaced it with a linear one.

Rob
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 10:07 am   #17
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

While it might be age related, its an unusual fault that allows a TV to go on working but then produce loads of RF emissions or noise. More likely I think is that it one of "chinese specials" that they routinely produce. All nicely CE marked of course. Only that was the model they put through the test house to get certification. The production models conveniently leave out all the EMC components that would allow the set to met the EMC Directive.

Richard
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 10:29 am   #18
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

My money was on a plasma at first, but then I wondered, given the time of the 'offence', whether it was a portable LCD with a house brick PSU which, as we all know, can happily emit RF all day long.
So let's get ready for the complaints about slow broadband being due to us with our nasty non-conforming old equipment...
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 10:35 am   #19
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Default Re: Old TV blamed for modern technology not working

I love the various approaches to blame and diagnostics in this thread which ranges from China to waving a MW radio at it.

It's really very very difficult hunting this stuff down and there are very few people equipped with the knowledge or equipment capable of actually pinpointing this accurately. I'm sure dragging a TF2370 on a trolley around the street is going to solve the problem eventually . The problem also lies with the binary version of "it's working" that people perceive. All things have a failure bell curve and I 100% would state my life that there are forum members here operating kit that knackers people's ADSL regularly. It might be that nice old vintage set you missed something on or it might be the upstairs LCD unit you paid £50 from tesco for.

At the end of the day this is a good outcome. The issue here is how long it took from complaint to resolution which the article should be focusing on.
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Old 22nd Sep 2020, 10:50 am   #20
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Default Old TV Causing B/Band Problems

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-54239180

Would like to know what the set was.

The TV was found to be emitting a single high-level impulse noise (SHINE), which causes electrical interference in other devices.


Seems the whole village was wiped daily for 18 months,I will not comment on my thoughts about finding it.
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