Recommendations for a cheap 'scope

[Bonky28]

I like trying to repair Hacker radios. I have a sig get but no 'scope.

Please can someone recommend to me a cheapish oscilloscope that would be fit for purpose?

Many thanks,

Richard.

[paulsherwin]

I think the majority of people here would say that a scope would be a waste of money at this stage. I have a scope but it mostly lives in the cupboard under the stairs as I can't be bothered to get it out.

There are some people who have used a scope throughout their professional careers and find them the natural way to faultfind, but the opposite is true if you have no experience of using one. Spend the money on things that will actually be some use - a stock of active and passive components, a Chinese component analyser, a good solder sucker, etc.

Build a simple signal injector and tracer. You can do this in under an hour using junk box parts and it will be much more use than a scope. If you plan to work on valve sets, build a lamp limiter.

You only really need a scope if you are going to do a full FM realignment, and for that you need a wobbulator (sweep generator) too.

[MrBungle]

Agreed. I rarely use mine when fixing and aligning things. When I’m designing new things that’s a different matter.

It’s worth picking one up opportunistically though. I tend to have purchased all my old ones for a measly £5-10 in the past. Worst case you’ll learn how to fix a scope too

[Bazz4CQJ]

It depends on what you want to do. I suspect that lots of people get by doing the sort of repairs you describe without a scope. If you want a scope which will enable you to look at VHF signals that means something with bandwidth of ~100MHz. The cheaper (older) scopes around are usually limited to 20-30MHz. Of course, that's more than adequate for looking at AF signals (probably what you might be thinking of) and MW signals and almost any model will do that. When you consider one, search this forum to see if there's much indication that others are using the same; is the service and or operating manual available - most important.

I'll bet that the people on the forum who are professional engineers will tell you to get a Tektronix, but they are popular so not often cheap. I've only ever owned quite basic scopes; a Telequipment and a Leader and I got both of them as free 'hand-me-downs'.

B

[Biggles]

Sometimes I use a scope for radio alignment as I find it easier to adjust a waveform for maximum rather than a watch a normal meter, but I suppose I fall into the category of using one during my normal working day so I am a bit biased. They are very useful for circuit design and development but not entirely necessary for general radio repair. When I was starting out a scope was not something the general hobbyist could afford. Nowadays it's a very different matter as technology is cheap. There are also plenty out there on the second hand market. Just be sure to see it working (for more than a couple of minutes) before you part with your cash. Someone on the forum may be able to help you out but they are not the sort of thing you would want to post. As for recommendations, anything with a bandwidth of about 20MHz will do, maybe dual beam if you can. You don't need anything fancy like a digital storage scopes unless you get into more complex stuff, and I personally didn't like the digital scopes we have had at work. Hope that helps.
Alan.

[julie_m]

At the risk or incurring some anger, may I suggest a battery-powered, hand-held LCD modern day wonder?

The technology has improved vastly since I got one of the first-generation LCD 'scopes that you will pry from my cold, dead hand. But even with its single probe, it can "see" signals that a meter often can't. The battery power and insulated probe also allow working -- with all due care -- on live chassis.

Yes, you can often manage without an oscilloscope at all. And setting up and using an analogue CRT beast can be a slow enough process -- especially when it has to be brought from a shelf of cupboard to the workbench, and put away afterwards -- to dissuade many from bothering, just for the sake of a few readings when they already have a pretty good idea what to expect anyway. The utility of the tool is adversely affected by the complication inherent in using it. (Compare how older vs younger carpenters work -- the former performing elaborate mathematical feats with folded lengths of sewing cotton to mark positions for cuts, the latter unafraid to use a ruler and pocket calculator to work them out. The undeniable fact is that millimetres lend themselves far more readily to base-10 arithmetic than fractions of inches. Dividing 147mm. by three with a calculator is easier than dividing 5 25/32 inches by three using pencil and paper, whereas folding a piece of thread exactly into thirds is somewhere in between).

And digital storage -- well, frankly, the only reason not to like that is what Baldrick referred to as "a bag of grapefruits".

For working on MW/LW radios, record players and tape recorders, you don't need ridiculously high sampling rates. Just make sure that whatever you do buy has standard "BNC" probe connectors, so you are not stuck with the supplied probe(s). But don't spend more than you can afford, because it probably won't sell for much.

[Nickthedentist]

I love my Hameg HM-203. It was free from someone here, but they often turn up for well under £50.

N.

[flyingtech55]

While agreeing with all of above, I picked up an Hitachi V212 for very little and have been pleasantly surprised by how well it works. You often see them advertised on the usual auction sites for very little money because I think very few folk know what they actually are these days.

HTH

Tim

[G0HZU_JMR]

I think that analogue scopes are so plentiful and cheap these days that my advice would be to be patient and wait for a bargain. Patience will get you away from the ancient and tired stuff with limited bandwidth and it may get you something like a cheap 60MHz to 100MHz Hameg.

But the older and cheaper you go, the more likely it is that the scope will come with a few niggly defects. Usually this means worn/dirty/intermittent controls and possibly a poor alignment or even a few faults.

I'd recommend the Hameg scopes, Tek 465 (although these are very old now) and Iwatsu 5710 or 5711 if you can get one cheap.

A lot depends on budget and how patient you an afford to be. You could get a decent scope like the ones suggested for much less than £50. I bought my Tek 465 over 20 years ago for just £52 for example. But the 465 is getting old now and reliability will always be a concern.

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by paulsherwin

I think the majority of people here would say that a scope would be a waste of money at this stage.

There are some people who have used a scope throughout their professional careers and find them the natural way to faultfind,

Well I have used a scope throughout my professional career but I've only ever used a scope once when repairing a radio and that was when I used a wobbulator for the first time during a full FM alignment....and that was only because I'd never done an FM alignment with a wobbulator before. Most times a meter is all you need for perfectly satisfactory results.

I would suggest you don't bother with a scope at this stage and do what Paul suggests. There's no problem obtaining a scope of course and you'll find it useful if you progress to TV. If you are only interested in radio's though, I wouldn't bother. Like Paul, mine sits under the bench most of the time but does get used for some TV repairs like sync and timebase faults.

[G0HZU_JMR]

For scope work on some vintage radio types, an isolation transformer would be needed if you haven't got one already. This is for safety and to prevent damage to equipment when connecting the scope to the radio. However, other forum members will have much more experience than me in this area and can advise better...

[Radio Wrangler]

If you're learning, I suggest you DO bother with a scope.

Yes you can do without one. Yes a lot of people learned without one.

But with one you can really see what's happening and that makes learning easier. Schools have basic oscilloscopes for a reason. Their expense is justified from the school's point of view. If opportunity presents itself, get one.

David

[Argus25]

I think I can offer you some very sound advice on what initial oscilloscope to get. I have a substantial collection of different types, Telequipment, Sony, Tek, Hitachi, Philips etc.

I would advise, for your first scope, that you get the Hitachi V509 50MHz scope. I will list the plethora of reasons below why:

This is a very compact scope, it won't occupy much space on your bench. It can run off mains or 12V too.

The screen size is about 3.5" diagonal, smaller than most scopes but big enough.

The CRT anode in it is powered from around 10kV and it can produce amazingly bright clear traces even in high ambient light levels.

The 50MHz bandwidth is probably about all you will ever need unless you want to get into VHF RF work.

The scope is professionally made (like a lot of Hitachi industrial products) and is not a toy, yet the price of good used ones, which come up on ebay from time to time, is quite reasonable at less than $100 often. The manufacturing quality is excellent.

The scope also has delayed time-bases and video sync separators, so if you get interested in vintage TV & video repair and waveform testing its perfect for that too.

Likely, you would never need to buy any other scope and once you have used this compact scope for a while, you will wonder how on Earth you ever managed without it.

If you do decide to get one of these, aim to get one that is cosmetically good as well as working, usually this means it has been well cared for and not abused and beaten to near death by inconsiderate operators. They normally would come with the compact user manual which also contains the scope's schematic.

Often this marvelous little scope gets overlooked by people looking for a good scope option.

[Bazz4CQJ]

A quick on-line search suggests the Hitachi v-509 is very rare in the UK. Was the model badged as anything else? I heard the suggestion that Hitachi and Leader were clones. My other thought is that "compact" is good, except when servicing needs doing, then it can be very bad.

[Argus25]

Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ

A quick on-line search suggests the Hitachi v-509 is very rare in the UK. Was the model badged as anything else? I heard the suggestion that Hitachi and Leader were clones. My other thought is that "compact" is good, except when servicing needs doing, then it can be very bad.

I'm not sure about Hitachi in the UK. I do not think they are related to Leader in any way, not that I have noticed. I've never seen one badged as anything else.

Since I'm in Australia, I get my test gear from worldwide, I don't worry if its UK, USA, Japan, Europe. I just accept the shipping. The Air post would be pretty cheap for a V509 from USA to UK I would expect, probably about the price of the scope, maybe $80 for each.

The V509 is not so compact that it is difficult to work on, it is beautifully laid out inside. But of the three of these scopes I have, over the last 30 years, I have only had to go into one, once, to clean the switches, so that is a pretty good run.

It is a bit limiting if you stick to the test gear commonly inside one country, then you then can't get the better option.

A v509 is compact enough I once easily carried one as hand luggage when I moved from NZ to AU.

[Radio Wrangler]

The Hitachi V509 is pretty much unknown in the UK. They might not have been a model Hitachi ever sold here.

Instruments with electrostatic deflection cathode ray tubes are easily damaged by shock in transit, so it's less risky to buy something within your own travelling range, or that you can get moved by the FCS. Experience on the forum seems to be that UK couriers and oscilloscopes don't mix well. The manufacturers used nested box packaging with carefully designed corner supports developed over numerous drop tests, then they employed premium couriers on contracts which made them fully liable for damage and subsequent costs. Test boxes with iaccelerometers were used to check on handling.

There are still plenty of oscilloscope models which are worth having and which turn up regularly in the UK if you fancy something old-style.

I seem to collect test equipment and I've had a bit of a clear out over the past year. A TDR and two scope mainframes got delivered to Rotherham for onward travel to Lincs. A set of two scopes and the matching HP spectrum analyser got given to a young colleague.

Limiting yourself to one model is rather, um, limiting.

Try a request in the wanted section of this forum and see what turns up.

If you like the sound of Hitachi, they sold plenty of oscilloscopes of other models to university labs. These crop up on the UK market very cheaply.

Hameg is a brand owned by Rohde and Schwarz. Plenty about. Very straight-forward, reliable and fixable.

Tektronix is THE name in oscilloscopes and even old ones carry a price premium. They pushed the envelope on performance and this affected reliability somewhat. That said, I've had several and not had any bother.

HP is the name not to have in oscilloscopes. Folklore says that no HP scope ever triggered on any waveform. Actually, they compete well with Tek but lack some of the bells and whistles, and enjoy better reliability and more clearly laid-out controls. They made good scopes that didn't need noisy fans, and the legend of never triggering makes the prices much lower than Tek on the second-hand market. The reality is that there was a group of timebase plug-ins (1821A) that used tunnel diode trigger circuits that were a devil to set up right. If adjusted correctly they were fine, but the legend was created and lasts to this day. Later HP models have no problems and are therefore bargains in the high performance scope market.

Both Tek and HP are at the high performance high complexity end of the market, and their performance comes from custom ICs and very special CRTs. Only consider these maker's common models - so you can acquire a second unit for spares.

Leader didn't get the university market, they sold to hobbyists. Can be OK, but cheap construction.

Trio (as in amateur radio) sold a few scopes in the UK. Can also be OK


David

[Argus25]

Originally Posted by Radio Wrangler

The Hitachi V509 is pretty much unknown in the UK.

It is a real shame that so much good great value and well made test equipment didn't make it to the UK and UK engineers missed out on it, my condolences. Luckily now with ebay and reasonable shipping costs, this anomaly can be rectified.

I have had multiple scopes shipped worldwide with seldom a problem, it all really depends on how well the seller boxes it. Double boxing usually prevents any issues. Being a portable scope too the V509 was made to be rugged and handle transports.

[ms660]

Most fault enquiries on here are from folks who for whatever reason do not know the basics of radio/audio/electricity, a 'scope can help to understand what's going on in that respect, why guess when you can see.

Lawrence.

[cmjones01]

Rather than aiming for a particular model, I'd say that the best scope for a beginner is the one you can get hold of most easily. My first scope was a Telequipment D31, which was almost absurdly old even in the late 80s when I got it. It didn't even work properly, but it taught me so much about electrical signals and what to look for.

These days the world is awash with analogue scopes available almost for peanuts. Any of the common models from the 1980s would do you well: the Hameg ones were popular in schools and universities and work very well. There are lots of Japanese (Trio, Hitachi, Leader) ones from the same era which are will do fine and are likely to be reliable. Even the British stalwarts (Telequipment and Gould/Advance) produced reasonable basic scopes in the late 70s/early 80s. The very basic ones from Scopex and Crotech never worked all that well when they were new, in my experience, but if you can find one for a few quid it will teach you a lot. Don't get hung up on the specifications: 10MHz bandwidth is usually plenty.

Avoid anything older than about 1975 since it's likely to need lots of switch cleaning and may be unreliable. Tektronix are amazing scopes - I've got half a dozen of them which I use in my work - but there's no need to go for a high-end machine as a first scope. Their 22xx series (2203, 2213, 2215 and so on) are decent basic scopes, though, and fairly plentiful on the secondhand market. One advantage they have is that service information is readily available and lots of people understand them.

Popular in the hobby forums are the modern Chinese digital scopes from Rigol, Siglent and friends. Though I'm sure they're perfectly good, I would avoid a digital scope as a first instrument. It's more likely to confuse you than to teach you anything. The joy of an analogue scope is the direct relationship between what's going on in your circuit and what you see on the screen. Digital scopes do a great job but can easily be misleading: for example, they can continue to show something on the screen long after it's no longer happening in your circuit. They need more skill and experience to use effectively.

In my day job as a development engineer I have all sorts of scopes, analogue and digital, with all manner of clever features and bandwidths up to 20GHz. But for day-to-day checking and troubleshooting of nearly any circuit, I use an analogue scope from the mid 1980s with cheap Chinese probes, and it spends most of its time with the 20MHz bandwidth limit switched on for a clearer trace. That usually tells me what I want to know.

Chris

[Argus25]

Originally Posted by cmjones01

The joy of an analogue scope is the direct relationship between what's going on in your circuit and what you see on the screen. Digital scopes do a great job but can easily be misleading: for example, they can continue to show something on the screen long after it's no longer happening in your circuit. They need more skill and experience to use effectively.

Chris

Bravo ! I couldn't have put that any better.