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Old 28th Jun 2020, 12:21 pm   #1
slidertogrid
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Default Television parts

I know manufacturers in the days of valve TV sets sometimes bought valves and CRTs from suppliers rather than making their own but I wonder why there wasn't a market for more parts bought in ' off the peg' .
The savings surely would have been worth it? Think of the cost for instance of designing a UHF tuner, prototyping it then making all of the individual parts and assembling it.
The programmable tuner fitted to the Rank A640 chassis! What ever must that have cost to design and make? (Yes, I know they got their own back later with the one in the A774! )
The same with LOPTs scancoils etc.. as the tubes were fairly standard the parts surely were not that different?
Car makers often bought in fairly standard parts. H.T coils, switches and lamps from Lucas. Instruments from Smiths etc.
TV manufacturers seemed to like to make everything in house with the exception of some turret tuners..
Then they would make a new chassis every few years (I'm thinking of Pye as an example) so another load of new parts to design and make.
No wonder we lost so many manufacturers back then.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 3:04 pm   #2
G8vsjDave
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Default Re: Television parts

I think what we have seen is typical of the way engineering companies have developed over the last century. It used to be the case that everything was made ‘in house’. I recall, many years ago an old EMI engineer told me “ trees went in the back of the factory, and televisions came out the front”.
I doubt if the A640 tuner actually cost that much to develop, IIRC the electronics were based on two tuners, VHF and UHF with the UHF fed into the VHF for extra gain. At the time, RBM’s development factory at Chiswick (west London) had a fully equipped machine shop and the in-house expertise to come up with the design.
As for scan-coils, back in the mid-sixties, there was a project at Rank to access the feasibility of manufacturing in-house scan-coils, but the outcome was negative.
After RBM closed their Chiswick factory in 1973 or 1974, a colleague moved to Fidelity Radio and told me ALL the television assembles were bought in. A sign of the times I guess.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 4:01 pm   #3
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Default Re: Television parts

Equipment type approval (e.g BEAB) meant many critical parts (the ones on the diagram
marked with a triangle) had to be specific types, for continued safety and to limit service
by non-trade repairers. There were suppliers of reliable pattern-parts e.g. RS but often
original types were supplied.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 4:35 pm   #4
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Default Re: Television parts

Interesting topic. ISTR from reading 'The Setmakers' that one of the strengths of the Japanese TV manufacturers versus ours, was that they tended to make parts in-house, whereas British firms would buy parts in, usually at the lowest feasible cost.

Japanese TV firms' design departments would be able to liaise directly with the component makers - which would usually be in another department of the same overall business. This really helped with reliability.

How does the Japanese arrangement compare with those of the European manufacturers of the same period?
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 5:44 pm   #5
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Default Re: Television parts

It wasn't always the case, as "slidertogrid" says, in 405 days a lot of manufacturers bought in VHF tuners (Cyldon, Bird etc.) and in 625 days UHF tuners (Mullard/Phiips - the ubiquitous ELC1043, NSF, Telefunken), and when colour came in scan coils, delay lines (Mullard/Philips) and the like, mainly "cos it was cheaper and the designing had already been done for them. I think a lot of it was "mix and match"

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Old 28th Jun 2020, 6:03 pm   #6
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Default Re: Television parts

One thing I noticed, and nothing to do with electronics either (electrical mainly) was when I worked briefly (11 months) for a multinational German firm, was that they bought in cabinets, components, wire, crimps, sealers, adhesives, you name it from only German firms, this was in sharp contrast to UK manufacturers whom tended to buy in the cheapest components from wherever.
Now I know the UK doesn't have the same industry that we once had, but even so we seem to do ourselves a great dis-service here.

Ps. I also worked similarly for a Japanese firm, also a Swiss multinational too, although in the case of the Swiss (ABB) they bought 'in house' predictably, and they broadly copied the German model above, it seems the Brits are prepared to sacrifice everything in the name of cheapness!
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 6:31 pm   #7
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Default Re: Television parts

From the earliest days Plessey produced an amazing quantity of standard parts that were used across the television manufacturers ranges through to and including the colour era. Philips produced a large range of tuners that turned up in many receivers. John.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 9:34 pm   #8
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Default Re: Television parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by G8vsjDave View Post
It used to be the case that everything was made "in house". I recall, many years ago an old EMI engineer told me "trees went in the back of the factory, and televisions came out the front".
Unfortunately, that philosophy seemed to be the reason that EMI television manufacturing came to an end!

The HMV 1807 has developed a reputation for being a particularly bad TV set due primarily, it seems, to very poor components that EMI insisted on making themselves.

The following is an extract from a thread (by Heatercathodeshort) examining why the 1807 was so bad.

"So what was the problem with the 1807?

Simply one thing, COMPONENT QUALITY. EMI insisted on manufacturing every part themselves and they were not masters at everything. The paxolin valve holders in the RF unit were of poor quality. The slider presets were horrible and soon fell apart with over use. The resistors appear to be of poor quality rising in value when quite new by reports of the time. The CRT was a bad design going O/C frequently, a rare fault with all other makes. The focus arrangement was crazy and unnecessary. The construction in the form of those Paxolin strips was again, nasty.

The original EMI decoupling capacitors were of very poor quality and were unfortunately replaced by the Hunts types that were not one of their best products thus continuing the problem. EMI did issue a kit of capacitors to improve reliability but it was too little, too late. The quality control of the B36 valve appears to have been poor adding to the misery."

Well worth reading the whole thread. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=83897

All part of the fascinating history of British TV manufacturing!

Cheers
Nick
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 11:11 pm   #9
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Default Re: Television parts

CRTs seem to often bought in, and not always by smaller manufacturers, I've found a Mitsubishi branded one in an Ingersoll (licence made in Taiwan by Tatung IIRC), a Toshiba in a Fidelity and a Samsung in a Panasonic.
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Old 28th Jun 2020, 11:39 pm   #10
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Default Re: Television parts

I suppose its a mixture of reasons. Nacent industries may find it hard to buy-in the specialist parts. Older companies may be stuck in their ways long after the component supply industry has become established. Some companies are just so big that they've worked out it's more profitable to make their own stuff through economies of scale, i.e when their requirement for tuning scales outstrips that of the biggest outside tuning-scale manufacturer.

I've been in lots of diverse manufacturing concerns over the years, for example Creda at Blythe Bridge made most of the washer themselves: metal pressings, small pressings and stampings, motors, wiring looms, drums, had their own stove enamelling/powder coating/plating lines, only buying in specialist stuff like the timers, switches and pumps.
Likewise a company up the road that makes household cleaning products for the supermarkets not only makes the liquid but blow-moulds the bottles it's sold in.

It's well-documented that EMI were particularly 'vertically integrated', the famous line being that they even made the metal polish for the brass door knobs. That might sound extreme, but in the early 90's here in Stoke we used to do jobs for Michelin Tyre Co who had its own department that made screws, nuts and bolts for its maintenance department. (they weren't all that good, but that's another matter and the factory was known for being notoriously over-staffed).

Interesting subject!
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 12:56 am   #11
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Default Re: Television parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Red to black View Post
it seems the Brits are prepared to sacrifice everything in the name of cheapness!
That was the market we operated in, price has always been the decider here for some reason. The people wanting quality went for Grundig, not HMV. The other factor is market size. The Japanese from the early days manufactured in quantity, getting the quality up, the price down, and then marketing versions to multiple countries. We manufactured to a price, ending up with quality that only really satisfied our relatively small market. 405 protected us for a while, until large screens dominated.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 9:09 am   #12
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Default Re: Television parts

Many of the circuits employed in television receivers were lifted from the application laboratories of Mullard and Mazda.
These were proven circuits using the valves and components manufactured by the manufacturers concerned.

The Peto Scott I have recently restored from 1948 uses an almost standard Mullard frame osc/output stage involving an ECC34 double triode. The similar circuit is used by PYE in the D16/18T. There are full page Mullard adverts in the W.W. with suggested circuits and descriptions for the stages in a television receivers.

It's interesting to note that in 1972 when I opened one of the first direct to dealer Toshiba accounts they presented me with a number of thick booklets describing the history of Toshiba that at that time was 135 years old!

Unfortunately I gave them to early customers and did not keep a copy for myself. They explained that they did not buy in components and produced everything themselves as I'm sure other Japanese did at that time. The reason stated was that they were in full control of quality that led to a very high order of reliability.

Toshiba tubes were fitted to a very large range of receivers. Their familiar red labels popped up everywhere. It was quite common for tube makers to supply set makers with the tube, scan coils and deflection components as a package. Toshiba, Mullard 20AX and 30AX come to mind. John.

Last edited by Heatercathodeshort; 29th Jun 2020 at 9:17 am.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 10:13 am   #13
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Default Re: Television parts

It's a question of evaluating the cost difference between buying in, and designing and making your own. The latter has an upfront cost but after that you're not paying someone a profit margin to get the parts you need. The truth is, it's very complex and involves the manufacturer being able to predict sales and how many extra staff and equipment would be needed to manufacture in-house. Not easy. But in general the bigger companies like EMI would make parts themselves, while smaller companies would buy in to avoid the cost of design and employing extra workers.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 10:32 am   #14
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Default Re: Television parts

One of the failings in UK designed and made TV chassis, was the widespread use of moulded carbon resistors (made by Erie, Dubilier, Morganite, etc.), right up to the mid-70s, when the writing was well and truly on the wall for UK based TV manufacturers. They were undoubtedly cheap, but soon drifted in value, especially when used in the higher voltage "Boost HT" circuitry.

I appreciate that carbon film types would be more expensive, but they could make a useful contribution to longer term reliability. The only essential use for moulded carbon resistors in a TV was in the CRT's spark protection arrangements.

Thorn developed their Jellypot line output transformer, which was very reliable (apart from the EHT unit in the 3000/3500 colour chassis). However, they still used moulded carbon resistors. Thorn also made their own mechanical and varicap tuners.

Plessey discontinued making complete TV chassis around 1965, but continued to supply many other wound components (e.g. deflection/convergence units, LOPTs), in addition to capacitors (by then they also owned TCC) and resistors (fixed and variable - their moulded track pots were very reliable and didn't suffer the "crackly when operated" problems of inferior types).
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 10:53 am   #15
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Default Re: Television parts

I often wondered who made the PCB mounted resistors beloved by Thorn from the 850 onwards. Were they made in house?
I wish Thorn had supplied other manufacturers with the jellypot transformers. Mind you, that would have meant less work for us! I agree they were very reliable, and the EHT transformer's demise on the 3500 was inevitably due to a faulty tripler.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 10:59 am   #16
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Default Re: Television parts

Quote:
Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
I often wondered who made the PCB mounted resistors beloved by Thorn from the 850 onwards. Were they made in house?
If you are referring to the carbon composition PCB mounting "plug in" types, these were made by Erie Resistor of Great Yarmouth. When first produced, they had an olive green body colour, which soon changed to beige.

Erie actually made a carbon film version, with a deep green body colour. RBM used them in their manufacture of the EVR Teleplayer (remember them?).
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 11:07 am   #17
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Default Re: Television parts

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Originally Posted by G8vsjDave View Post
As for scan-coils, back in the mid-sixties, there was a project at Rank to access the feasibility of manufacturing in-house scan-coils, but the outcome was negative.

Dave
Interesting, as Bush Radio Ltd (and for a short time, up to the TV125/V879 ranges, Rank Bush Murphy Ltd) made their own scan coils.

RBM also made their own pitch dipped LOPTs, including the Mk1 and Mk 2 dual standard colour TV timebase units. However, from the TV125/V879 range, they also often fitted functionally equivalent LOPTs made by Plessey Windings Ltd, of Titchfield, Hampshire.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 3:28 pm   #18
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Default Re: Television parts

Thanks Dazzlevision - they were the resistors I was referring to. I remember seeing some of the dark green ones, possibly in more critical positions.
Thorn also used those black Callins electrolytic capacitors, though I can't recall seeing them in any other manufacturers' products. ISTR they had rather odd values which would drift crazily, often upwards, in value.
RBM's pitch dipped transformers gained something of a reputation after the CTV25 Mk1 and 2 used to burst into flames. The idea of a 25kV overwind dipped in pitch was not a good one, it seems. Although the mono LOPTs did fail, it was seldom with such catastrophic results. I think the A640 and the CTV25 were their last outing - the A774 and Mk3 duals used conventional, though unreliable, transformers.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 3:34 pm   #19
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Default Re: Television parts

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Originally Posted by Welsh Anorak View Post
Thorn also used those black Callins electrolytic capacitors, though I can't recall seeing them in any other manufacturers' products.

RBM's pitch dipped transformers gained something of a reputation after the CTV25 Mk1 and 2 used to burst into flames.
I think the A640 and the CTV25 were their last outing - the A774 and Mk3 duals used conventional, though unreliable, transformers.
Unfortunately, Callins (Eire) electrolytic were used by other UK manufacturers, such as Radio & Allied Industries (Sobell, GEC, McMichael). I have just swapped some out in a couple of GEC AM/FM transistor radios that I'm restoring.

The RBM A793 (single standard version of the A640) did use both the pitch and Plessey types.

The dual standard CTV Mk3 timebase unit used a Plessey made LOPT.
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Old 29th Jun 2020, 4:47 pm   #20
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Default Re: Television parts

Ah - the A793. I'm always getting its name wrong! Probably the best picture on a Bush mono set, even including the A816 IMHO.
Who made the LOPT for the A823? Almost up there with the jellypots in terms of reliability - luckily due to (in)accessibility!
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