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General Vintage Technology Discussions For general discussions about vintage radio and other vintage electronics etc. |
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9th Dec 2019, 10:25 pm | #21 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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The REU NDB Database shows the last logging of MCH as in 2008, and it is marked as inactive. Kind regards Dave G0ELJ |
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10th Dec 2019, 12:29 am | #22 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Staffordshire Moorlands, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
huh, just checked our local one, lichfield LIC and it's gone. Mesmerised me as a child listening to it late at night pretending it was a lonely radio operator somewhere asking for help.
Sometimes the LIC ended with an extra 'E' which google tells me was a diagnostic alarm. The morse for L,I,C, S,O,S and E are still the only ones i know.
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Kevin |
10th Dec 2019, 1:40 am | #23 |
Nonode
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Ha. It's funny how we absorb things. I've never formally learned Morse, but over the years I've inadvertently learned to recognise CQ, SOS, K, G and E.
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Andy G1HBE. |
10th Dec 2019, 2:33 am | #24 | |
Dekatron
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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___ SOS should never be sent as three separated letters, they should be sent as if it were a singles character. It's only SOS by convention it could equally be VM7 and others. Sometimes there isn't even a strict convention as with the "End of transmission" signal ...-.- which is often written as __ VA but also alternatively __ SK which is also where the practice in the Amateur fraternity of using SK in place of RIP. Silent Key. Getting broadly back on topic can I ask if Morse training plays much of a part in Commercial or Private pilots licencing, seeing these beacons still carry Morse idents.
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10th Dec 2019, 5:12 am | #25 | |
Moderator
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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There is another beacon system VOR. VHF Omni Range. A right hotch-potch of a name. These beacons give you bearings automatically. There aren't enough frequencies for them to be unique, though the planners try to not re-use a frequency too close, it is still possible when propagation gets 'interesting' to hear a wrong one. This could be dangerous. Pilots are trained to always listen to the beacon they are using and to check the morse ID by ear. It's also possible that someone forgot to retune their NAV radio and it's still on the last one he used but he thinks it's on a different one. Checking is important. The localiser signal of an instrument landing system also carries a morse ID (the glideslope doesn't) It would be kind of dumb to have your ILS set for a different runway to the one you were intending, wouldn't it? Has it happened? Yup. Some also have forgotten to lower the wheels before landing. But, checking a beacon or ILS ID doesn't always get called Morse. Some pilots were trained just to listen for a pattern of 'longs and shorts'. Modern NAV radios often have automatic Morse decoders to display the ID letters, but pilots are still supposed to use their ears. The decoders are dedicated to a specific keying speed and accurate element widths and spaces. Just try hand sent morse on one of these and try to get the letters you intended to display! THe VOR beacons also have the bandwidth and dynamic range for speech set aside, so in addition to their main job, they can also broadcast messages like 'Talla VOR will be non-operational for maintenance from....' ILS localisers and VOR beacons are in the 108-118MHz segment. David
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10th Dec 2019, 10:25 am | #26 | |
Pentode
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Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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10th Dec 2019, 11:17 am | #27 |
Dekatron
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Thanks for that David and Paul, very informative.
Actually David made the same point about pattern recognition, I don't see any real contradiction.
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10th Dec 2019, 11:18 am | #28 |
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Maybe I phrased it badly. Training requires them to be able to match a pattern of dots and dashes on a chart with the sound they hear. That is reading morse, though no use at all for general messages or conversation, and probably only morse reading on a technicality. Plenty of them are even unaware that the sounds relate to the ID letters.... 'it's just a pattern'. It can be amusing to watch faces when you tell them what it is.
People flying historic aircraft have to handle it, because a glass panel would ruin the appearance of the cockpit. There's a market for small radios and transponders that comply with current MOPS and fit into spare instrument holes and don't look glaringly out of place. David
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10th Dec 2019, 11:47 am | #29 |
Pentode
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
David, as a pilot I can assure you that this is most definitely not the case. Any pilot will be fully aware of what the Morse code ident relates to!
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10th Dec 2019, 12:35 pm | #30 |
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
While I can't attest from personal experience that all do know it's morse, I can definitely state that from personal experience I've met a number who were unaware. I certainly had to do Morse as such.
I will make no further comment. David
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10th Dec 2019, 2:21 pm | #31 |
Rest in Peace
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
I remember as a kid tuning into something on the bottom end of medium wave. I eventually worked out it was sending 'LIC' over and over. It wasn't until many years later that I found out it was the Lichfield NDB that is not far from what was then Elmdon Airport. I lived in Solihull at the time.
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10th Dec 2019, 7:51 pm | #32 | |
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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10th Dec 2019, 11:22 pm | #33 | |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Scratby, Norfolk, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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Sadly, the listing is a very old one, and although many of them are still operational, LIC Lichfield for example appears to have been gone for nearly 10 years, Talla went over 20 years ago. I believe the latest loss this year was NGY New Galloway. I wonder if your local beacon CT is still around . I guess the next 2 or 3 years will probably see many more closures. Kind regards Dave |
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11th Dec 2019, 12:24 am | #34 |
Pentode
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Location: Coventry, West Midlands, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Hi Dave, yes you are correct, I should have looked more closely at that! This looks to be a more up to date list https://www.openaip.net/navaids?fiel...any_to_one=236 and shows just over 70 NDB's in use.
I haven't flown from Coventry for some time but I believe the CT NDB was switched off a couple of years ago, Coventry downgraded from an ATC service to an AFIS service and at that time the ILS, radar and NDB were taken out of service. As I understand it the equipment is all still in place and mothballed but not in use as the airfield does not have a full ATC service. |
13th Dec 2019, 9:27 am | #35 |
Tetrode
Join Date: Nov 2017
Location: Bromsgrove, Worcestershire, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Excuse my ignorance but what do you hear when you listen to a NDB? Is it just a repeated ident similar to an Amateur band repeater or something else?
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13th Dec 2019, 10:59 am | #36 |
Heptode
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: West Midlands, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Just the call sign letters in Morse with a short gap between repeated over and over.
Mike. |
14th Dec 2019, 10:00 am | #37 | |
Heptode
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
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As for virtual routes...already old hat. Lines on a chart none could follow without a GPS. No earth based fixes at all and only maths in the IRS; but with no GPS we couldn't fly them
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19th Dec 2019, 7:04 pm | #38 |
Pentode
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
Aircraft ndb,s
Well that generated some comments, some very useful info since my first post,re post 21 that explains why I can't hear Manchester, I am using my R1155 DF loop and am able to hear Liverpool, Leeds and two I need to id on 338 kHz call sign HAW and 368khz call sign WHI,I use the loop because of the high background noise from I think the smart meter fitted last year (bad move )they are weak signals but the loop is only 6" in diameter.regards Keith. |
19th Dec 2019, 7:18 pm | #39 |
Dekatron
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Heckmondwike, West Yorkshire, UK.
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Re: Aircraft non directional beacons
WHI is Whitegate: http://www.trevord.com/navaids/whi.htm
HAW is Hawarden: https://www.openaip.net/node/1912747 |