The cost of that ECC83 valve?

[Stylo N M]

Hi,

Could anyone give an explanation as to why the cost of the ECC83 valve is now going through the roof, up to £100 just for one piece

Paul.

[AC/HL]

They're not in particularly short supply, so it seems to be Audiophoolery.
It also depends on the wording of the advertisement, so add Psychology.

[Tyso_Bl]

It's what the market will stand, why sell it for a tenner if you can get a ton for it?

[Peter.N.]

Have a look on eBay.

Peter

[Bazz4CQJ]

It's not just the 'obvious' audio valves; I've seen recent audio amplifier circuits appear using things like EF91's and PCL86's, so prices of those have started to rise; no valve is safe

B

[G8UWM-MildMartin]

Originally Posted by Peter.N.

Have a look on Bbay.

And at the lower price range, you'll find Chinese ones for about £8.40 inc. postage or the similar Russian 6N2P for about £6.20 a pair, but they have 6.3V heaters only, so need a correspondingly minor wiring change.

Martin

[k_yller]

in case of NOS ECC83 demand are too high
ECC83 from recent production ..no comments about quality
in case of russian 6n2p prices are 300% higher then 2 years ago

[Stylo N M]

Hi martin,

So as a layman so to speak, i could buy a much cheaper one and not realise that it would be unsuitable as a replacment

Paul.

[bikerhifinut]

I think it's just the "NOS" stuff thats pricy, plenty of serviceable ECC83/12AX7 available from the likes of JJ Tesla, electroharmonix etc. I happily use them in my Hi Fi applications and leave the NOS stuff to the completists or those that actually think a valve makes that much difference.............. Cynical moi?

Andy.

[bikerhifinut]

Originally Posted by Bazz4CQJ

It's not just the 'obvious' audio valves; I've seen recent audio amplifier circuits appear using things like EF91's and PCL86's, so prices of those have started to rise; no valve is safe

What's wrong with using those old TV valves for audio amps? I'm in the process of buying 10 PCL86 for £20 for use in a project based on the Rogers Cadet circuit. Better than soaking up the dwindling stocks of ECL86 which the people with older Rogers etc amps will need as replacements/spares.

I think they are also still in production by JJ, loads about.

[HamishBoxer]

It really has got to a stage now where you dare not sell a valve for fear of needing it in the future.

Certainly decent ECC83 etc are available for under £12.

[m0cemdave]

Could anyone give an explanation as to why the cost of the ECC83 valve is now going through the roof, up to £100 just for one piece

Hi-fi has always been a mixture of art and science, and like most consumer markets is subject to the vagaries of fashion and the effects of hyperbole.

So the "vintage hi-fi" scene has become very similar to the art world where the signature on a painting defines an object's value, sometimes more so than the technical competence of the artist.

In some situations the label on a valve defines its desirability. This can lead to the odd result that where the output of a given production line was labelled with several different brand names, some of them are considered many times more valuable than others - even though they are absolutely identical.

Some ECC83's are better than others, and some labels more desirable than others. The two factors don't always coincide.

[PE9ZZ_JO22KI]

@Hifinut: actually, a PCL86 contains half an ECC83. I did a similar stunt with a Hacker RV19 design. Works like a charm. Matched the two PCL86s from my inventory of used tubes.

As for prices: it is getting ridiculous. Just found out I have two dud TFK ECC803S's, they sell NOS for many hundreds of euros (or pounds, for that matter).

As for better: if they're close enough to the specs no one will hear any difference...

Tjerk, 9ZZ

[bikerhifinut]

Yeah that's right enough half an ecc83 and an output pentode in one envelope, its the same valve as the unobtanium ECL86 but with am odd heater voltage as its designed for a 300mA chain in a telly. But it'll work with between 12 and 14V on the heaters so it will suit for a one off design based on the old Rogers circuit.
Its unfortunate about your ECC803 valves, no longer manufactured, they were as I seem to remember a special high mu valve made only by Brimar, and are now like gold dust for the phono stage in a Rogers amp. I believe you can rework it to use ECC83 but the sensitivity drops accordingly.

[yestertech]

Originally Posted by bikerhifinut

Its unfortunate about your ECC803 valves, no longer manufactured, they were as I seem to remember a special high mu valve made only by Brimar, and are now like gold dust for the phono stage in a rogers amp. I believe you can rework it to use ECC83 but the sensitivity drops accordingly.

Slightly OT I know....
That would be ECC807 in fact - used only by Rogers it seems.
You can indeed rework the circuit quite well for ECC83s ( any make you like - not a jot of difference ! )
The gain is pretty much unchanged, due to the amount of feedback used.
But don't let on for goodness sake !

A.

PS I always understood that PCLs were intended for lower DC voltages at higher currents, therefore different ra and not strictly interchangeable
Save up those ECL86's !!

[GrimJosef]

Originally Posted by bikerhifinut

...Its unfortunate about your ECC803 valves, no longer manufactured, they were as I seem to remember a special high mu valve made only by Brimar, and are now like gold dust for the phono stage in a rogers amp. I believe you can rework it to use ECC83 but the sensitivity drops accordingly.

The high mu double triode made by Brimar and used by Rogers was not the ECC803, it was the ECC807. They are indeed very hard to come by. The TFK ECC803S was a special quality version of the ECC83. They were both rare and expensive even when they were still in production, back in the 1960s.

As for the more general question of why the price of certain valves has risen, the explanation comes down to the shortage of supply (they're no longer being made) and the sustained demand (it's widely believed that the expertise built up by the volume manufacturers combined with the quality control procedures needed in their competitive and demanding market meant that they simply made better valves than modern manufacturers do). The effects of Supply and Demand have been understood for centuries http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supply_and_demand. They shouldn't come as a surprise.

Cheers,

GJ

[PE9ZZ_JO22KI]

Certainly, the rules for supply and demand do apply. It's the demand side that baffles everybody. Why pay a fortune for a NOS diamond base TFK ECC83 when a clone (Chinese, JJ, whatever) will do the job exactly the same way? It's all between the ears. The people that pay a fortune for said diamond base have this urge to have it exactly right even if there's no basis for this whatsoever. People like Hifinut and myself who like to tinker and try different avenues (PCL86 with 14V heater instead of the identical ECL86) get the same excellent results at a fraction of the cost.

Tjerk, 9ZZ

[mole42uk]

But, I venture to suggest, we on this forum are largely well-educated in the art of valves and have the knowledge to understand them, not just relying on manufacturers labels, or the colour of those labels. Just as we are unlikely to buy snake oil.

[mark pirate]

Why pay a fortune for a NOS diamond base TFK ECC83 when a clone (Chinese, JJ, whatever) will do the job exactly the same way? It's all between the ears.

I agree, I am sure if you got together some of the 'Golden Ears' brigade for some blind testing, the results would be very interesting indeed

I dread the day when we simply cannot justify restoring an item due to the cost of the valves we need. I was lucky enough to find four PX4's in a job lot of valves I purchased some time ago, two of these were needed to restore a couple of sets that had previously been pillaged to satisfy the audiophools.

I have noticed that a lot of run of the mill 1930's valves that were available at reasonable prices are also becoming much more expensive.

Mark

Brand new for 12 quid form Rapid, perfectly good and the writing seems to be better stuck on than older valves.