UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Powered By Google Custom Search Vintage Radio Service Data

Go Back   UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum > Specific Vintage Equipment > Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc)

Notices

Vintage Audio (record players, hi-fi etc) Amplifiers, speakers, gramophones and other audio equipment.

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 16th Feb 2018, 9:10 pm   #1
PsychMan
Octode
 
PsychMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,075
Default Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Evening all. I decided to finally remove the chassis from the SRG86 radiogram that's been on my "to-do" list for 2 years or so. I was surprised to see what looks like an asbestos heat shield above the audio output stage, I haven't seen this in a radiogram before but then again, I haven't been in many radiograms...Seems a little excessive here given there's plenty of clearance between the EL84s and the top of the cab..

In terms of condition it looks like some small parts may be flaking off. I've carefully removed the chassis and blasted it clear of all dust outside, and have wiped the inside of the gram with a wet cloth. Any advice on what to do with this panel? I understand one option might be to seal it with something? Any tips what I could use? Id rather do it in situ if I take this path.

Or should I remove it and replace with something like modern plumbers heat shield? I've done this before with the backing of lighting ballasts in my jukebox.

I've encountered asbestos a few times, but usually it didn't seem in danger of shedding like this.

Any views appreciated,

Adam
Attached Thumbnails
Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3402.jpg
Views:	257
Size:	85.4 KB
ID:	157534   Click image for larger version

Name:	IMG_3401.jpg
Views:	220
Size:	45.2 KB
ID:	157535  
PsychMan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Feb 2018, 9:36 pm   #2
Bookman
Pentode
 
Join Date: Aug 2017
Location: Taunton, Somerset, UK.
Posts: 197
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Could it be sindanyo?
Bookman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 16th Feb 2018, 9:40 pm   #3
crackle
Nonode
 
crackle's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2011
Location: Basildon, Essex, UK.
Posts: 2,202
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I have used PVA glue in the past to seal and hold the fibres together.
Mike
__________________
BVWS Member
The KB Museum

My collection in the Radio Museum
crackle is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2018, 1:26 pm   #4
PsychMan
Octode
 
PsychMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,075
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Thanks Mike, I assume the "builders" PVA would be ok? I have a big tub of that to use up. Maybe the way forward is to carefully remove, paint it generously outside then reinstall
PsychMan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2018, 1:57 pm   #5
Boater Sam
Dekatron
 
Boater Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines.
Posts: 3,114
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I do appreciate the dangers of asbestos but abhor the terror that is induced at the mere sight of what is or might be.

It is only certain types that are very dangerous and normal precautions will prevent any hazard.
Breathing mask, gloves, still air and common sense will be fine. Preferably outdoors.
I would avoid removing it if you can, it may break up. Just soak it in diluted PVA, any sort or emulsion paint. If undisturbed it represents little danger.
My old mum had a worn and broken slab of white asbestos on the ironing board, she died of motor neuron disease, I'm well over 60, lungs clear, carved up tons of cement asbestos products with power saws, so its not so bad.
Its the blue and brown stuff I think that's worse.
__________________
Boater Sam.
BVWS Member
Boater Sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 17th Feb 2018, 11:39 pm   #6
Radiocruncher
Hexode
 
Radiocruncher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Torrington, Devon UK.
Posts: 370
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Asbestos cement board usually contains white asbestos in a hard cement base and is the least harmful. However what you have looks like AIB (asbestos insulation board) which will flake, release fibres and is much softer. It could contain white or brown asbestos fibres (you can’t tell the colour by looking at the board) The only real way of telling is to have it sampled. In a previous job I was a trained asbestos sampler. We used to take samples in a controlled environment and send them to a lab for analysis. The best plan of action is to leave well alone. If it’s flaking then as others have said a slightly diluted PVA solution gently brushed on will seal it but don’t forget a dust mask, gloves, disposable boiler suit etc., etc. Wet it down with spray bottle filled with water which will ensure that no fibres are floating around in the air. We used to dispose of airing cupboard doors (via a licensed waste service) rather than remove asbestos from it. If in doubt seek professional advice.

Regards

Graham
Radiocruncher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2018, 12:20 am   #7
Bazz4CQJ
Octode
 
Bazz4CQJ's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2009
Location: Oxfordshire, UK.
Posts: 1,852
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

It takes a trained technician with an appropriate microscope to tell whether it is the most harmful (blue) stuff. As others have suggested, I'd carefully apply some PVA/water (1:4) solution, let that dry and then do PVA neat.

B
__________________
We know there are known unknowns. But there are unknown unknowns Ė ones we don't know we don't know.
Bazz4CQJ is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2018, 1:00 am   #8
nicam49
Tetrode
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Wigston, Leicester, UK.
Posts: 93
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I don't think pva will seal it. I had to dispose of an asbestos panel from an old ironing board and thought pva would do the trick as suggested above, but asbestos isn't porous for a start so doesn't 'seal' like, for instance, plaster would. All I achieved was to encase it in a coat of pva which just peeled of in places.
nicam49 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2018, 9:48 am   #9
Radiocruncher
Hexode
 
Radiocruncher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Torrington, Devon UK.
Posts: 370
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

PVA will seal it. Asbestos won’t absorb the PVA but the material it’s embedded in will. Even asbestos cement board will absorb water so a diluted solution of PVA will be absorbed better.
Radiocruncher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 18th Feb 2018, 11:03 am   #10
PsychMan
Octode
 
PsychMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,075
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Thanks Radiocruncher! I had assumed it was the more benign white asbestos, Iím glad I posted here now. Aib does sound potentially a lot worse. I wish Iíd been a bit stricter in my removal of the chassis but canít change that now. I did loosely tape a sheet of plastic over it for now and tried to mop up residue with a damp cloth. Sounds like PVA is the way to go when the chassis goes back in
PsychMan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Feb 2018, 2:12 am   #11
Techman
Octode
 
Techman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 1,696
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

The thing is whether what you paint on will stand up to heat and not smell or melt and drip down onto the works.

Where I used to work, hunting out and dealing with any Asbestos was a big thing at one time. Many items containing Asbestos had to go, and over time even though we thought that everything had been dealt with, odd items still kept cropping up in the strangest places. There was a piece of kit with a heating element in a holder mounted onto a base with a small Asbestos heat shield on this base. I had a word with the chaps in our engineering section who let me borrow a tin of their special paint for the purpose. I painted the Asbestos with this paint and it dried hard with no flaking and was heat resistant and did a perfect job. It was a long time ago and I can't remember what this product was other than it was an orange brown colour and after I'd used it I let them have the tin back.
Techman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Feb 2018, 9:52 am   #12
vidjoman
Octode
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: East Sussex, UK.
Posts: 1,856
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I think I would seal the panel as much as possible with a thin sealer for safety reasons - then remove and dispose of it. Replace with a sheet of Mica spaced off the cabinet and possibly angled to direct the heat towards the rear of the cabinet.
vidjoman is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Feb 2018, 10:21 am   #13
daviddeakin
Hexode
 
daviddeakin's Avatar
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Burnley, Lancashire, UK.
Posts: 279
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I would replace it with a bit of vermiculite board /jewellers soldering mat/bunsen burner mat, and chuck the asbestos in the bin.
daviddeakin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 20th Feb 2018, 6:02 pm   #14
TrevorG3VLF
Octode
 
Join Date: Apr 2011
Location: Matlock, Derbyshire, UK.
Posts: 1,041
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I have had a friend die recently from mesothemlioma. Do not treat it light heartedly. Do not chuck it in the bin, get it disposed of properly.

Sindanyo may contain asbestos.

It is difficult to analyse for asbestos, we used to use x-ray diffraction which can distinguish between the various types
TrevorG3VLF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Feb 2018, 8:08 am   #15
Radiocruncher
Hexode
 
Radiocruncher's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Torrington, Devon UK.
Posts: 370
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by daviddeakin View Post
I would replace it with a bit of vermiculite board /jewellers soldering mat/bunsen burner mat, and chuck the asbestos in the bin.
Ignore this. Removing the board would release loads of fibres into the air which could affect you and your family. It can take up to 40 years for symptoms to appear. Putting it in the bin could then affect the council workers. Hereís the advice from this posters council http://www.lancashire.gov.uk/waste-a...-and-asbestos/
Radiocruncher is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 21st Feb 2018, 7:26 pm   #16
Richard_FM
Hexode
 
Join Date: Sep 2017
Location: Stockport, Cheshire, UK.
Posts: 262
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

The now demolished place where my Mum used to work had so much asbestos in the walls that they were banned from even sticking drawing pins in them.

I was built about the same time as TV Centre, which had many problems with asbestos found during upgrades.
Richard_FM is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 22nd Feb 2018, 1:40 am   #17
Techman
Octode
 
Techman's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Lincolnshire, UK.
Posts: 1,696
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

The bottom line on this is to leave the heat shield where it is and just seal it with an appropriate product.

However, where I would advise particular caution is with cleaning out the cabinet - don't suck it out with a vacuum cleaner. You have to remember that the filter in a domestic vacuum cleaner is not capable of filtering out the finest and most dangerous particles and will just spread them all over the house and re-distribute them every time you vacuum the room and contaminate the whole house and everyone's lungs. If you must vacuum, then do it outside and only use an old vacuum cleaner that will NEVER be used inside the house.

I never vacuum a radio, I just use an old cleaner set on blow and do it down the garden on preferably a slightly damp day and using a long wand on the end of the pipe, keeping well away from any neighbouring boundaries. You never know what's in the heavy build up of decades of dust in an old radio. Many houses of the past were full of Asbestos fixtures, fittings and insulation and the radio could have been in use there when renovation was carried out in less than ideal conditions, you just don't know.

If you've already used your vacuum cleaner for sucking out potential Asbestos dust, then you need to remove, bag and seal ALL filters and bags etc. and safely dispose of them. Then you'll need to decontaminate the cleaner itself by washing all the vital parts, if this can't be done, then you'll either have to dump it or keep it in the shed and just use it for cleaning radios etc.

Edit to add: If I think there's definitely Asbestos dust there then I'll swab out with damp disposable cloth before any blowing, then bag, seal and dispose of cloth while damp.

Last edited by Techman; 22nd Feb 2018 at 1:48 am.
Techman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd Feb 2018, 9:13 am   #18
PsychMan
Octode
 
PsychMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,075
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Thanks for all the comments. As I said the chassis was blown clear in the garden with my workshop vacuum in reverse mode. I did carefully mop the inside of the cab with a damp cloth, but only briefly. Now I know it could be more dangerous I’ll be more cautious

I think what I will do is simply seal the inside of the cab where the chassis sits, ie paint it all in pva so any residual stuff will stay put. Also the back panel

The asbestos board I will also paint up with PVA, I may also cover it with another heat shield matierial (solder mat) by gluing it to the cabinet

I did consider vacuuming it with my workshop vacuum by placing the unit outside the window, running the suction hose inside (that way anything chucked back out the vacuum is outside), but I feel that’s too risky and will ruin my workshop vacuum.

One factor that does come to mind is the baise matierial underneath the chassis compartment (record storage) as there are vent slots there. But given the chassis blocks the way normally, and I did cover the board in plastic after removing the chassis, it’s unlikely any got down there. All the same I do plan to recover this as it’s badly damaged anyway.

Unfortunately no option is going to be perfect now, like my handling up to now. Friends have told me to chuck the whole cabinet away. But then moving it out the house and driving it to a tip carries its own risks, and I’ve already transported it once when I originally bought it!

On the plus side, the smoothing cap reformed perfectly and it’s working very well (on the bench) after just changing the dc blocking caps for the output stage. Full of black and grey hunts though!
PsychMan is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd Feb 2018, 10:28 am   #19
Boater Sam
Dekatron
 
Boater Sam's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2013
Location: Middlewich, Cheshire, UK. & Winter in the Philippines.
Posts: 3,114
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

Quote:
Originally Posted by PsychMan View Post
Unfortunately no option is going to be perfect now, like my handling up to now. Friends have told me to chuck the whole cabinet away. But then moving it out the house and driving it to a tip carries its own risks, and I’ve already transported it once when I originally bought it!
I know the risks and hazards of asbestos, worked with it in various forms most of my working life.
But this is bordering on paranoia. You are not allowed to tip it anyway. Just get on with the renovation and be happy.
__________________
Boater Sam.
BVWS Member
Boater Sam is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 23rd Feb 2018, 1:01 pm   #20
PsychMan
Octode
 
PsychMan's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2013
Location: Fleet, Hampshire, UK
Posts: 1,075
Default Re: Bush SRG86 Asbestos?

I take your point Sam, and for what it's worth I don't agree on tipping the whole thing. I went to great efforts to source this gram and its been in my living room demanding my attention for 2 years, I couldn't bin it after all this - even if I wanted to!

I'll get on with it, do my best, and move on.
PsychMan is online now   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 2:25 pm.


All information and advice on this forum is subject to the WARNING AND DISCLAIMER located at https://www.vintage-radio.net/rules.html.
Failure to heed this warning may result in death or serious injury to yourself and/or others.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Copyright ©2002 - 2018, Paul Stenning.