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Old 4th Mar 2018, 9:36 pm   #21
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Over fifty years ago, a piece in a motoring anthology about fuel efficiency said something to the effect that cars are poor at turning petrol into energy, but that doesn't stop them being very good at turning money into fun. So a rare valve costs £15-20 sometimes? If somebody is selling it by way of trade, he has to hold that stock and list it somewhere, maybe for a couple of years, before you appear wanting just that valve. Then he has to pack it properly and so on. I don't equate that with the reprehensible scalping which goes on around PX25s and the like.

Granted, we all like a bargain and none of us wants to spend more than we need to, and I'd be the last to pooh-pooh the benign and generous spirit which generally makes this forum such a pleasant place, but is every supplier of components supposed to function as a charitable institution?
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 9:37 pm   #22
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Most Vintage Radio enthusists build up stocks of valves and spares in general. I think it's a question of being proactive and putting your name about not just amongst recognised groups but amongst family, friends and workmates. That way you get put on to the trail of sets and every so often, 'shedfulls' of spares that are no longer needed such as from a retirement or bereavement, though admittedly those situations don't happen too much these days. TBH, I can't imagine spending more than a few pounds to restore a set. Through fellow collectors you can always trade a valve or two and similarly a missing knob or some other part. Otherwise a few wax cap replacements and electrolytics don't cost too much especially if you keep stocks and save strip down parts. To me, this thread serves to illustrate how differently we all approach restorations. I see restorations as pleasurable effort, graft and dedication, but not too costly once the set has been bought.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 9:53 pm   #23
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

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Originally Posted by Nightcruiser View Post
After all, valves are no longer easily obtainable at a fair price and some components are getting near impossible to find.
To be honest, I think that the majority of "jellybean" valves have been something of a steal for some decades now- the transistor rapidly caught on for the great majority of things owned by the great majority of the population and valve stocks became of little value and doubtful return compared to continuing to hold them, inventorise etc.- yes, once in a while, I'll think, "Wow, XY12s used to be 50p each, now they're £10...." but a few moments consideration shows that "used to be" might now be 30 or 40 years ago! Not that big a percentage of the population is interested in repairing valve radios and valves (generally) have turned out to be longer-lived than much received wisdom, so we have been fortunate beneficiaries of a combination of circumstances, distorting the market and sustaining the hobby for much longer than if valve prices had kept linearly tracking general inflation. Even if some valve prices have gone up somewhat in the last few years, many are probably cheaper or at least comparable in real price to when they were extant 50-70 years ago.

Agreed that things like HT/heater transformers, switch banks/wafers and IFTs might now often need to be sourced by cannibalisation but rallies and auction sites still source passives in the required wire-ended, high-voltage etc. strictures that are in much reduced OEM demand now, and are likely to be available for some time in this manner. If nothing else, many folk here probably have such stock salted away-witness the "wanted" posts and frequent quick resolution.

If nothing else, I (and I suspect many others here) like to keep things and keep them going simply because they illustrate just how it was both different and difficult to achieve results that are met by cheap, effective but bland and ephemeral modern solutions. What the Marconi 559 here achieves with its sturdy, precisely made walnut veneered cabinet, hefty steel chassis and dozens of brass and steel components in its tuning drive and scale would now be achieved with a couple of ICs, an LCD and a snap-together injection moulded case- very efficient and orders of magnitude cheaper to both make and buy, but quite heartless in comparison. Most people would instantly plump for the up=to-date solution and skip the pre-war radio- but we're here beacause we aren't "most people".
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:19 pm   #24
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Moderators, I hope this is not OT? It has often been stated on older threads about price comparisons from decades ago. In 1964, PW was I think 2 shillings, 10p today's money. 6V6 were about 8 or 9 shillings i think? ie 40-45p? (My starting wage in 1967 was £3 and 15 shillings. (£3.75) GROSS for a 5 1/2 day week.)
So, PW today I am guessing is about £4.00?? 40 times the cost? So, a 6V6 should be about £16.00+? My reasoning is that if you have a radio that needs say £30 in parts spending at today's prices, I imagine it is still a bargain cost to you relatively speaking at todays prices?
The unfortunate bit is that only a very few sought after radios and a lot more hi-fi have appreciated anywhere near this 40 times or thereabouts threshold. Just look at the ever popular DAC90. I do not think any of us could make any cash from buying cheaply, then restoring and finally selling it on?
This leaves most restorations at a loss financially if parts bought at current market rates. FORGET the hours!
However, this is a hobby for us and there are often a lot of offers of parts to assist fellow enthusiasts thanks to the generosity of fellow forum members. If you can reciprocate, this is both a help and a nice goodwill feeling.
(Another hobby I have is 00 gauge model railway and that can definitely be a costly one to pursue!)
This brings me back to the thread title. It all depends on the restorer's ambition as to just what he wants to achieve and if there is a financial motive. i.e. To sell the restored item onward or keep it for their own enjoyment, even if just for the pleasure of owning it and saying with pride "I restored that"!
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:28 pm   #25
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

In the past I've been embroiled into dialogue about how selfish my hobbies are, along with value for money, which occasioned some surprise.

As you can imagine, my very presence here suggests I have an interest in vintage technology, what's not immediately apparent is my interest in classic cars, of which we have two.

Neither hobby is an 'earner' & whilst they keep me busy, they don't keep me quiet!

I do it because it fulfills the creative in me, making a part to replace something missing or damaged, or sourcing spares is part of the challenge & a requirement to make these fabulous items operational. This comes with the inherent cost & an element of luck. I also do it to remind me of times past, of my childhood perhaps, not necessarily a happier time, I'm very happy now, still a big kid, just a little more pragmatic about getting away with things!

Consider the great minds & people who went into making your radio, from initial concept meetings, through the drawing office, machine shop & assembly to dispatch, a whole raft of skills & expertise, plus the social history of all those places on the dial.

As for being a selfish hobby, family & friends thoroughly enjoy the summers months with the classic cars, going to shows, stately homes & holidays away, creating memories for the younger generation, this too includes our radios, enjoyed by one & all, me fixing them & making them functional, everyone else enjoys listening & looking at them.

With all this in mind, & the fact when I pass on leaving my 'handiwork' behind for future family members to admire & all things being equal, enjoy, talk & recount the stories of 'grandad' will live on long beyond my years.

Surely, that's priceless.

Mark

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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:44 pm   #26
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

No one is ever going to make a profit restoring vintage radios.

What it comes down to is; is buying and restoring vintage radios an expensive hobby? From my own point of view the answer is no, unless you're into something like spy sets. Even my Ekco AD65 was bought at a reasonable price, but the man hours put into restoring it, if priced, would far exceed its resale value.

I reckon I've spent far more on test gear and tools than I ever have on radios and parts. I had to restore much of the test gear too!
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:47 pm   #27
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcruiser View Post
A question cropped up during a discussion yesterday from other ordinary general collectors such as myself as to whether many old sets now are really worth restoring and saving... I hate to say it, but really a lot of collectors are being forced away from the hobby they enjoy.
I think that 'collectors' are different from 'restorers' or 'repairers'. I am frequently amazed by the amount of money some collectors are prepared to pay in order to obtain a specific item. On the other hand, restorers and repairers obtain immense pleasure from the intellectual challenge and the satisfaction of using traditional skills to bring an old radio (or whatever) back to working order. Cost, and the value of one's time, doesn't come into the equation, although most of us enjoy being able to do it cheaply. Shelling out money is not part of the fun for me.

A non-radio example. Over the past couple of weeks I have been restoring a pair of damaged 1920s vintage paraffin-fired bicycle lamps for display and use on a vintage delivery bike on a preserved steam railway. The missing lenses and other parts are simply unobtainable; to buy another similar lamp would have taken me into the antique dealer price bracket. In the end I used a jam jar lid, some red 3mm Perspex, a bit of tinplate and the steel wire taken from the bead of a scrap bike tyre. Cost - about £3. Value to me - incalculable.

By the way, I'm definitely not a collector; more of a repairer who has unintentionally built up a collection!
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 10:49 pm   #28
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Quote:
I reckon I've spent far more on test gear and tools than I ever have on radios and parts. I had to restore much of the test gear too!
YES, exactly! That is a progression of this hobby I feel. I would need an hour or two to catalogue all of my test gear!
Pleasure is in the owning as well as the using. Keeps me out of the pubs these days.
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Old 4th Mar 2018, 11:12 pm   #29
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Whilst my interest lies mainly in the vintage audio world, I do love old radios.
They are, in an odd way, like living things to me.
And I would say anything is worth restoring, I detest the throwaway society we live in, paying lip service to pollution and waste yet profligately dumping "obsolete" items that are not even worn out.
I agree with the observations on relative costs of spares, my personal analogy is the "Pint of beer" inflation measure. And it may surprise many to realise that many spares like valves are actually cheaper in real terms than in 1960!
There are some Valves that perhaps have gone into the stratosphere but I think its hyped up as PX4 etc were already rare I think and that and that alone bumps prices up.
Personally if i want a low powered triode with the characteristics of a PX4 i'll triode wire a KT66.

This, like any other interest in historic items, has its saints and villains but my overwhelming experience on this forum and in the BVWS has been of people who just love the hobby of restoring or merely being interested in old radio and audio equipment.
Far more than just a bunch of "collectors" I feel.

Andy.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 1:11 am   #30
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Post Re: Is it worth repairing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcruiser View Post
A question cropped up during a discussion yesterday from other ordinary general collectors - such as myself - as to whether many old sets now are really worth restoring and saving.
With the restriction that that remark applies only to valve radios, it seems to me that the answer to the question "are they worth restoring and saving" is more likely to be determined by the availability (or otherwise) of broadcast stations to listen to, plus the ever-increasing amount of electro-magnetic interference being generated. Traditional MW, LW and SW broadcasting stations seem to be vanishing at an ever increasing rate, with the higher freqs. and the Internet gaining increasing audiences. And, for me, I find that very sad. However, I foresee that the onward march of technology will eventually render traditional MW / LW / SW radios virtually obsolescent - with the exception of receiving 'pantry' transmissions - but I expect that the numbers of vintage radios used for that purpose will be very small. An analogy to preserved steam railway lines (which I thoroughly enjoy when I can) seems an approximate comparison.

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Old 5th Mar 2018, 7:22 am   #31
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

The OP seems to resent having to pay more than a few shillings for valves and also resents folk who sell them on yon auction website for an "unreasonable" profit.

Valves like anything else are a commodity, prices go up, and down - supply and demand and all that. When prices go up, middlemen jump in and start trading and making a profit; that's capitalism.

That said you can still get valves for a few quid and most sellers only charge a few quid for postage + ebay fee (ebay take a profit on postage). If someone try's to charge me £20 for postage, I won't buy from them.

Andy.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 10:31 am   #32
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

My personal passion is for vintage 405 line TV's, while some parts are hard to source, prices are not too bad.
Unlike audio equipment, most valves are still available at reasonable prices.
I agree that the expenditure is more than the monetary value of a set, but that is not the point, I restore sets purely for pleasure, not for profit.

As for cost, I average around £50 a set in replacing components, the pleasure it gives me to restore a set to working order is priceless

Mark
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 10:33 am   #33
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

It's all in the question ..."worth" repairing. What is the worth ?

For me radio & TV restorations & repairs have nothing to do with money. If it did I would never have spent significant work in restorations which used hours of time and money, when the amount that could be recovered on a sale of the item might be 30% of that on a good day.

It is about seeing the intrinsic value in something and the potential it has and to bring it back to its former glory.

For example, I paid a relative small fortune for a totally rusted 1939 TV chassis (but not as much as the average punter spends on a big screen TV that will be on the tip in 5 years) an Andrea KTE-5, with no valves or CRT and rotten components , wiring & sockets and worked on it for nearly two years to bring it back to a beautiful looking and working example of a 1939 TV set. It transcends any $ value. I admit, I was miffed that the 6V6G used in the video and audio output stage had become audiophile types and their prices skyrocketed, but it didn't alter my resolve.
Why did I do it ? Was it "worth it" ?
Well to me it was worth it and to any restorer, where some radio, TV or machine captures their imagination, it is always worth it.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 10:50 am   #34
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Yes... to take just a few personal examples:

Was it "worth" it restoring vintage radios and televisions?

Was it "worth" it to build a mirror screw televisor?

Was it "worth" it to invent the Copycoder?

Is it "worth" it to try to bring 405 back on the air?

Absolutely not!

All these cost and are costing me (and sometimes others too) time and money. But I just had to explore these avenues, to see what would happen. We all make our own marks on reality. They often aren't cost-effective but they can still be fun!

Steve

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Old 5th Mar 2018, 12:27 pm   #35
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

Quote:
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My personal passion is for vintage 405 line TV's, while some parts are hard to source, prices are not too bad.
Unlike audio equipment, most valves are still available at reasonable prices.
I agree that the expenditure is more than the monetary value of a set, but that is not the point, I restore sets purely for pleasure, not for profit.

As for cost, I average around £50 a set in replacing components, the pleasure it gives me to restore a set to working order is priceless
I couldn't have put it better! It's the sheer pleasure of seeing an old TV or radio function again after being dormant for many years.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 12:42 pm   #36
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

I too do it entirely for the sheer enjoyment of the process and seeing a derelict and unloved thing come back to life and then fit into our day-to-day lives.

As stated previously, it is a cheap hobby compared with most in many respects.

Even bog-standard valves are getting hard to obtain though. I needed an EABC80 not long ago, and it was very hard (though no means impossible) to track down a new or tested good one in this country. I am also rather horrified at the price of humble ECL86s now.

I was too late to the game to get involved with serious valve audio equipment. By the time I found this forum in 2006, most of the good stuff was beyond my reach. But I am delighted that someone is restoring old classics and they are being enjoyed again.

N.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 12:44 pm   #37
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

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I hate to say it, but really a lot of collectors are being forced away from the hobby they enjoy.
I disagree there! From the reaction of some of my close vintage colleagues, they are as keen now as they ever were. It's true that most of us have built up a fair stock of parts over the years either by being in the trade (I was for 40 years) or just as hobbyists that have been restoring/repairing for a good number of years.

I could possibly sympathise with someone just starting out on the hobby who has few or no spare parts at all and has to buy as required but passive components like capacitors and resistors are still very cheap and can often be bought in multiples of 10 for under a fiver (eBay). Some radio's inevitably end up as 'scrappers' and will yield valveholders and transformers as spares (I have several component drawers full of valveholders obtained in this way) and a box of assorted and labelled 'reclaimed' transformers. It takes time but eventually you can end up with most of what you require for normal restorations.
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 1:09 pm   #38
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

And the radios themselves are still cheap - loads of nice, 1950s, restoration candidates on eBay for under £20, cheaper still at local auctions and BVWS events. Even the "iconic" DAC90As can be had for less than half of what they were fetching 10-15 years ago... but expect to pay as much as you paid for the set for a new UL41
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 1:10 pm   #39
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Default Re: Is it worth repairing?

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I hate to say it, but really a lot of collectors are being forced away from the hobby they enjoy.
Hi, I’d say no-one is being forced out of anything. The forum is hugely subscribed and active, with a very large platform of of members doing the odd simple fix now and again but many doing complex restorations of even apparently wrecked sets from skips, garages etc. These my have a low intrinsic value, even restored, but it doesn’t deter people who enjoy a challenge and who choose to takes things methodically and carefully at a pace that is manageable.

I have not yet replaced a single valve in a radio set, over several restorations.

A failed valve comes up surprisingly rarely as a reason for failure of a post-War valve radio set. The valves in my pre-War set are still good after about 80 years.

I have replaced 2 rectifier valves in portable record players repaired for others , and one output valve in the same kind of equipment. That failure was ‘unnecessaryj ‘ to the extent that it was caused by the owner ignoring my advice and continuing running the set with a leaky ‘that cap’ unto too much damage was done .

I have replaced driver and power stages in some transistorised radios of the ‘70s.

(On top of that , among the members of me forum are boxes and boxes of every valve you can care to imagine - there’s no ‘shortage’ here!)

I replaced output valves in two Quad monoblocks, around ten years ago.

Most valve radios I encounter are still repairable for a few quid. The commonest components that need replacing are easily stockpiled and cost pennies each.

Things like cotton-covered wire, for looks when hard-wiring a chassis, cost more. But compared to the cost of many pursuits, even doing an exhibition-level restoration, as some people sometimes do, is more about vision, effort, skill, tenacity and problem solving than throwing money around!

I did used to be able to buy Quad or Leak monoblocs for restoration once in a while, but now it is true that vendors of these things in any condition , including with all the valves missing, want such silly money that it makes no sense .

But this is a tiny niche of the repair and restoration world, so I’m not in he least bothered by the Tulip-fever of audiophile valves!
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Old 5th Mar 2018, 1:18 pm   #40
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Arrow Re: Is it worth repairing?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Nightcruiser View Post
Valves are no longer easily obtainable at a fair price.
"A fair price": that depends on your definition of a 'fair price'. An 'unfair' price to you might be considered as a 'very fair price' by someone else.
Having said that, Keynesian Economics calls the shots: the Law of Supply and Demand.

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