CAD for novices. - Page 2 - UK Vintage Radio Repair and Restoration Discussion Forum

brenellic2000 · 22nd Dec 2012, 9:47 am

This reminds me on the sales demos we suffered in the 1980s - virtually every American CAD software, bar none, that we were offered 'demonstrated' how brilliant it was by having a sectioned, or skeletal, perspective of a Space Shuttle. We very soon found out that the sales reps hadn't a clue how to begin to draw it... and we sympathised with the skilled CAD operator who had sweated blood over several weeks to placate his over ambitious marketing men!

We settled for a good, honest British 2-D draughting packed which did everything it (and a skilled draughtsman) promised to do, but we wisely left 3-D/Perspectives to a proper draughtsman/artist who could present a far more pleasing '3D' image than any 3-D CAD system ever could!

Even draughtsmen's 'cog' templates tended to have the teeth for cogs/gears the wrong way round... and of course gear teeth have many forms! But while most CAD software should be able to do an 'array' of x number teeth in a circle, some will trip up if it involves more than 2 decimal points (360/31 = 11.612903 degrees) unless it has a decent maths coprocessor, which many early PCs didn't!

Progress.. but keep it up!

Barry

Retired · 22nd Dec 2012, 11:50 am

Hi,

Many thanks Barry for your instructive input and story of your sales demos which is most interesting.

Unfortunately I've never been involved with CAD on a professional level only ever being a raw novice. I've not attended sales demos of such software or even entered a draughstman's office.

I started this thread as a total CAD novice in the hope of demonstrating to other forum members my humble beginnings with CAD and to encourage them to have a go. At the start of this thread I didn't even know if I would pick CAD up in 2D let alone 3D because I have failed miserably over the last 14 years to grasp the basics. Each time I've tried with various CAD programs I've thought I was making progress until it all got out of hand and the drawings didn't go as expected ending up in total frustration.

I was top of our school in Technical Drawing 50 years ago and have always enjoyed using my drawing instruments. Times change though and now I have a computer and I'm aware of CAD. There are many free CAD programs available so what an interesting project in learning CAD on such dismal days as today. I like a challenge and to learn something new; CAD has been one heck of a challenge for me and without any training or tuition at all I've started from scratch; unlike my previous failed attempts where I thought I was making progress I am actually making excellent progress using EMS CAD.

Accuracy to the millionth decimal point isn't what I'm trying to portray here; all I want is to draw accurately enough and three decimal points using CAD is a great deal more accurate than I can ever hope to achieve using my drawing instruments; in fact given my eyesight I have trouble viewing the individual lines on a protractor.

I find it most therapeutic sitting here in peace and comfort whilst learning CAD; I'm not under any pressure to learn I'm learning because of two reasons; I'm interested and I don't like being beat. I don't need CAD like I didn't need to spend many months in freezing conditions restoring my Ekco T311 TV; I do such things to separate me from a cabbage.

I don't envy any expert in any field because to reach such a degree of knowledge in any subject would render the subject boring as for me the challenge would evaporate. I'm happy being frustrated delving into the unknown and this is what CAD is to me at the moment.

Over the years I've seen many wonderful blue-prints and could only marvel at the skill involved in producing such work but I don't want blue-prints I only want to crack the CAD code because it has become a personal challenge to me.

I sincerely hope my rambling notes do encourage others to have a go with EMS CAD and I would love to hear of their experiences in so doing. I'm also interested in the experiences of experts in CAD as I have so much to learn so any pointers would be gratefully received by me.

Kind regards, Col.

Aerodyne · 22nd Dec 2012, 1:58 pm

From what Col has described, the simplicity of the free EMS program has numerous possible uses: I envisage the layout of amplifier and radio chassis, front panels and below-chassis layouts too. None of these are likely to require enormous levels of micro-accuracy (leave that to AutoCad) so I find it mystifying that this thread carries negativity: what is the problem with getting to know and use a free and straightforward CAD program?
For my part I'd like to thank Col for taking the trouble to introduce us novices - as indeed he was at the start - to the program and for describing his progress so clearly. It is quite apparent that this is intended to encourage others. Obviously, for those who do not like CAD for whatever reason, or cannot see the need for and fun of 3D projection, the thread is certain to be of little value. Conversely, those amongst us who are indeed novices with CAD and who have in the past been put off by its complexity will find this of interest.
Well done, Col.
Tony

brenellic2000 · 22nd Dec 2012, 3:43 pm

No negativity is intended, Tony, but many try to run before they can walk with CAD, expecting masterpieces... which they happen to later create by doing it the wrong way.

That is why being tutored by someone used to that system and who knows its pitfalls is best (I had to tutor CAD operators - but found many later chose not to do in the 'right way' which made it difficult for others who then took over the drawing file). It took years for the CAD industry to reach an approved standard of practice...!

As one famous engineer once said, "any fool can tighten a nut with a pencil"! I'll now shut up!

Retired · 22nd Dec 2012, 4:55 pm

Hi,

Thank you so much Tony for your kind comments which are much appreciated. I had hoped other CAD novices would be encouraged to have a go with EMS CAD and share their experiences whether good or bad.

I've received a great deal of free help from forum members especially during my epic TV restoration and in turn I'm merely trying to respond in kind.

I welcome information regarding Auto-Cad and indeed any other CAD or drawing programs but would prefer this information to be encouraging and possibly be a comparison between such programs and EMS CAD because I for one am willing to learn from more experienced CAD users. It's easy to forget that however long ago we trained in a subject unless we were very special indeed we had to learn the basics.

I'm so used to metal/woodwork that a simple sketch on a piece of board or scrap of paper is all I need to make the item but having a dimensioned drawing for more complicated items would be very useful. 3D brings such items to life as they can be viewed from any angle. Seeing my drawings take shape in 3D still impresses me.

Using EMS CAD in 2D gives six different projections under "View" Top; bottom; front; back; left and right. If drawn in 3D these views are readily accessible and each view can be worked upon and modified. Taking an amplifier or radio chassis which Tony mentions as an example; how good would it be to draw the chassis in 3D adding all the cut outs and brackets etc in one drawing then in a second drawing add all the components.

If we all think of our hobbies in terms of time and money then our hobbies fail badly so I believe it unfair to compare a hobby to a job. These days everyone appears to be in a panic to get everything done yesterday and money rules. Not with me though because I retired from such active conflict and now if I wish to waste my time restoring radios or playing around with CAD I can do so without feeling guilty. As such please accept my attempts at CAD as intended.

It would be good Barry if you would share your CAD experience in an encouraging manner as you could add so much constructive input to this thread; both Tony and I are CAD novices and both of us willing to learn from others like you possessing greater knowledge. Like Tony I felt at times negativity creeping in possibly unintended but enough perhaps to put other novices off attempting CAD. I'm pleased Tony brought this up because Tony and I have always tried to encourage. This story is running on two forums and both forums have suggested 3D is a waste of time also with other similar comments regarding 2D?

This forum was the first forum I ever joined and I only joined because I wanted information on how to accurately divide a circle; at the time I was attempting to fully restore an AVO Wave Winder and this winder needed 45 gears it being supplied without a single gear. I'm indebted to John (Heatercathodeshort) for his generous help in supplying information and pictures of the correct gears. This winder restoration resulted in me being honoured with Best restoration award 2009 by the BVWS.

https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=42011

It was also at this time I came across EMS CAD in particular the EMS Spur Gear Wizard and through a very steep learning curve I came up with a new method of cutting cast iron gears using a lathe. I still could not use CAD to divide a circle but it didn't prevent me from achieving my goal.

EMS divides circles and lines at the touch of a button; this is demonstrated in the wheel drawing and is so easy to do. I couldn't even accurately divide a circle using pencil and protractor so I certainly started from scratch. One thing I do have is determination.

Kind regards, Col.

22nd Dec 2012, 9:47 am	#21
brenellic2000 Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,647	Re: CAD for novices. This reminds me on the sales demos we suffered in the 1980s - virtually every American CAD software, bar none, that we were offered 'demonstrated' how brilliant it was by having a sectioned, or skeletal, perspective of a Space Shuttle. We very soon found out that the sales reps hadn't a clue how to begin to draw it... and we sympathised with the skilled CAD operator who had sweated blood over several weeks to placate his over ambitious marketing men! We settled for a good, honest British 2-D draughting packed which did everything it (and a skilled draughtsman) promised to do, but we wisely left 3-D/Perspectives to a proper draughtsman/artist who could present a far more pleasing '3D' image than any 3-D CAD system ever could! Even draughtsmen's 'cog' templates tended to have the teeth for cogs/gears the wrong way round... and of course gear teeth have many forms! But while most CAD software should be able to do an 'array' of x number teeth in a circle, some will trip up if it involves more than 2 decimal points (360/31 = 11.612903 degrees) unless it has a decent maths coprocessor, which many early PCs didn't! Progress.. but keep it up! Barry

22nd Dec 2012, 11:50 am	#22
Retired Heptode Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fenay Bridge, Huddersfield. UK. Posts: 673	Re: CAD for novices. Hi, Many thanks Barry for your instructive input and story of your sales demos which is most interesting. Unfortunately I've never been involved with CAD on a professional level only ever being a raw novice. I've not attended sales demos of such software or even entered a draughstman's office. I started this thread as a total CAD novice in the hope of demonstrating to other forum members my humble beginnings with CAD and to encourage them to have a go. At the start of this thread I didn't even know if I would pick CAD up in 2D let alone 3D because I have failed miserably over the last 14 years to grasp the basics. Each time I've tried with various CAD programs I've thought I was making progress until it all got out of hand and the drawings didn't go as expected ending up in total frustration. I was top of our school in Technical Drawing 50 years ago and have always enjoyed using my drawing instruments. Times change though and now I have a computer and I'm aware of CAD. There are many free CAD programs available so what an interesting project in learning CAD on such dismal days as today. I like a challenge and to learn something new; CAD has been one heck of a challenge for me and without any training or tuition at all I've started from scratch; unlike my previous failed attempts where I thought I was making progress I am actually making excellent progress using EMS CAD. Accuracy to the millionth decimal point isn't what I'm trying to portray here; all I want is to draw accurately enough and three decimal points using CAD is a great deal more accurate than I can ever hope to achieve using my drawing instruments; in fact given my eyesight I have trouble viewing the individual lines on a protractor. I find it most therapeutic sitting here in peace and comfort whilst learning CAD; I'm not under any pressure to learn I'm learning because of two reasons; I'm interested and I don't like being beat. I don't need CAD like I didn't need to spend many months in freezing conditions restoring my Ekco T311 TV; I do such things to separate me from a cabbage. I don't envy any expert in any field because to reach such a degree of knowledge in any subject would render the subject boring as for me the challenge would evaporate. I'm happy being frustrated delving into the unknown and this is what CAD is to me at the moment. Over the years I've seen many wonderful blue-prints and could only marvel at the skill involved in producing such work but I don't want blue-prints I only want to crack the CAD code because it has become a personal challenge to me. I sincerely hope my rambling notes do encourage others to have a go with EMS CAD and I would love to hear of their experiences in so doing. I'm also interested in the experiences of experts in CAD as I have so much to learn so any pointers would be gratefully received by me. Kind regards, Col. Attached Thumbnails

22nd Dec 2012, 1:58 pm	#23
Aerodyne Octode Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Hampton Vale, Peterborough, UK. Posts: 1,698	Re: CAD for novices. From what Col has described, the simplicity of the free EMS program has numerous possible uses: I envisage the layout of amplifier and radio chassis, front panels and below-chassis layouts too. None of these are likely to require enormous levels of micro-accuracy (leave that to AutoCad) so I find it mystifying that this thread carries negativity: what is the problem with getting to know and use a free and straightforward CAD program? For my part I'd like to thank Col for taking the trouble to introduce us novices - as indeed he was at the start - to the program and for describing his progress so clearly. It is quite apparent that this is intended to encourage others. Obviously, for those who do not like CAD for whatever reason, or cannot see the need for and fun of 3D projection, the thread is certain to be of little value. Conversely, those amongst us who are indeed novices with CAD and who have in the past been put off by its complexity will find this of interest. Well done, Col. Tony

22nd Dec 2012, 3:43 pm	#24
brenellic2000 Octode Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Rye, East Sussex, UK. Posts: 1,647	Re: CAD for novices. No negativity is intended, Tony, but many try to run before they can walk with CAD, expecting masterpieces... which they happen to later create by doing it the wrong way. That is why being tutored by someone used to that system and who knows its pitfalls is best (I had to tutor CAD operators - but found many later chose not to do in the 'right way' which made it difficult for others who then took over the drawing file). It took years for the CAD industry to reach an approved standard of practice...! As one famous engineer once said, "any fool can tighten a nut with a pencil"! I'll now shut up!

22nd Dec 2012, 4:55 pm	#25
Retired Heptode Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Fenay Bridge, Huddersfield. UK. Posts: 673	Re: CAD for novices. Hi, Thank you so much Tony for your kind comments which are much appreciated. I had hoped other CAD novices would be encouraged to have a go with EMS CAD and share their experiences whether good or bad. I've received a great deal of free help from forum members especially during my epic TV restoration and in turn I'm merely trying to respond in kind. I welcome information regarding Auto-Cad and indeed any other CAD or drawing programs but would prefer this information to be encouraging and possibly be a comparison between such programs and EMS CAD because I for one am willing to learn from more experienced CAD users. It's easy to forget that however long ago we trained in a subject unless we were very special indeed we had to learn the basics. I'm so used to metal/woodwork that a simple sketch on a piece of board or scrap of paper is all I need to make the item but having a dimensioned drawing for more complicated items would be very useful. 3D brings such items to life as they can be viewed from any angle. Seeing my drawings take shape in 3D still impresses me. Using EMS CAD in 2D gives six different projections under "View" Top; bottom; front; back; left and right. If drawn in 3D these views are readily accessible and each view can be worked upon and modified. Taking an amplifier or radio chassis which Tony mentions as an example; how good would it be to draw the chassis in 3D adding all the cut outs and brackets etc in one drawing then in a second drawing add all the components. If we all think of our hobbies in terms of time and money then our hobbies fail badly so I believe it unfair to compare a hobby to a job. These days everyone appears to be in a panic to get everything done yesterday and money rules. Not with me though because I retired from such active conflict and now if I wish to waste my time restoring radios or playing around with CAD I can do so without feeling guilty. As such please accept my attempts at CAD as intended. It would be good Barry if you would share your CAD experience in an encouraging manner as you could add so much constructive input to this thread; both Tony and I are CAD novices and both of us willing to learn from others like you possessing greater knowledge. Like Tony I felt at times negativity creeping in possibly unintended but enough perhaps to put other novices off attempting CAD. I'm pleased Tony brought this up because Tony and I have always tried to encourage. This story is running on two forums and both forums have suggested 3D is a waste of time also with other similar comments regarding 2D? This forum was the first forum I ever joined and I only joined because I wanted information on how to accurately divide a circle; at the time I was attempting to fully restore an AVO Wave Winder and this winder needed 45 gears it being supplied without a single gear. I'm indebted to John (Heatercathodeshort) for his generous help in supplying information and pictures of the correct gears. This winder restoration resulted in me being honoured with Best restoration award 2009 by the BVWS. https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...ad.php?t=42011 It was also at this time I came across EMS CAD in particular the EMS Spur Gear Wizard and through a very steep learning curve I came up with a new method of cutting cast iron gears using a lathe. I still could not use CAD to divide a circle but it didn't prevent me from achieving my goal. EMS divides circles and lines at the touch of a button; this is demonstrated in the wheel drawing and is so easy to do. I couldn't even accurately divide a circle using pencil and protractor so I certainly started from scratch. One thing I do have is determination. Kind regards, Col.