Troubles with Philips N4504

[**BETSY**]

Hi All, Plesae excuse my ignorance but like many i have stumbled across what i call some old Reel to Reel tapes.
They are on 5" reels and 'look' to be in good condition.

Now, im trying to play them on a Philips Machine, N4504, but so far have had no luck!
When i push play both the wheels on the machine turn, RH turns quicker, but imo they are turning in the wrong direction?
The one on the left turns clock wise while the one on the right turns anti clock wise, is this correct?

I have tried different orientaions of the tapes etc but had no luck?

Any hints, tips or pointers?

TIA

Steve

[DOFFERY]

Belts, clutch inserts , these will have to be replaced & the "goo" removed, a common problem with these machines. Take off the deck plate, only 4 or five screws on some, control knobs & stop bar, you will discover the problem by sight.

Colin.

[60 oldjohn]

Hi Steve, if you do a Forum search for N4504 you will find a lot of information on removing Goo, belt suppliers and other faults. The circuit diagram / service info is available top right of this page. If you find you need it. "also helps fund this site" Good luck from John.

[ben]

Originally Posted by **BETSY**

When i push play both the wheels on the machine turn, RH turns quicker, but imo they are turning in the wrong direction?
The one on the left turns clock wise while the one on the right turns anti clock wise, is this correct?

In playback and fast wind, the right hand spool (take up) goes anti-clockwise and the left hand (supply) also. If this does not happen, someone's probbly been having a fiddle inside the machine, or I suppose a belt could have got misthreaded. If this deck has not been serviced for a while, as others have said, expect goo. search the forum...

[ricard]

I'm wondering if the original poster wasn't talking about the movement of the reels with no tape loaded in the machine.

The N4504 has belts for the take up and supply reels. If the belts have turned to goo, then reel motors won't turn the reels at all. So the belts are at least where they should be and at some sort of tension. Probably still need replacing though.

On some machines, and I think on the 4504, the left (supply) reel turns in the opposite direction (i.e. clockwise) to the take up reel, in order to provide a certain amount of back tension. If left unloaded (i.e. with no tape in the machine), the reel tables can end up going pretty quickly after a while.

So it sounds as if the machine is at least serviceble to me. If you've never used one of these machines, it may not be obvious how to thread the tape; it's easy to put one of the reels on backwards. There are numerous pictures and videos on the internet which are probably a better help than a textual explanation. Here is one for instance (no connection to myself, it just came up rarther high when searching for N4504 on Youtube):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gOZCvD1zAh8&NR=1

/Ricard

[**BETSY**]

Thank you to everyone who has posted above!

Indeed with no tapes leaded the reels turn opposite ways when the 'Start' button is pressed.

Upon taking the unit apart i have not seen ANY Goo but rather three baggy/loose rubber bands.
The one in the back had completely fallen off.
Im assuming it goes over a small wheel on a silver motor and the huge free spinning wheel?

The tape counter has no band attached either?

TIA

[askhim8]

.....i have the N4515, which is the longer version of the N4504.....i have just given it a thorough service and reloaded the tension arms to the correct torque....when the arms are in a resting position and no tape threaded the supply reel does indeed turn clockwise or backwards until the tension arm is moved to the right where it would be with the tape loaded....the back tension is only there to keep the tape taught when stationary when the play button is pressed the tension arm moves to the right opening a contact breaker which stops this movement backwards by the motor and the tension arm takes over from the electrical circuit....Hope this helps?

[ricard]

Originally Posted by **BETSY**

Upon taking the unit apart i have not seen ANY Goo but rather three baggy/loose rubber bands.
The one in the back had completely fallen off.
Im assuming it goes over a small wheel on a silver motor and the huge free spinning wheel?

The tape counter has no band attached either?

TIA

I'd suggest replacing the belts as soon as possible before they do turn to goo...

There may be people on the forum who have replacement belts, and I've seen quite a few ads on eBay for belt kits for this series of machines.

Yes, there should be a belt running from the huge spinning wheel aka flywheel to the motor pulley. Replacement involves loosening the rear mounting for the flywheel but it's not a difficult operation.

The counter should also have a belt. Usually the counter belts are the thinnest in a machine so they tend to fail first (with the exception of many a Tandberg where the counter belt gets loose but rarely fails completely).

If you want to get the machine working quickly you can use ordinary rubber bands to test with, but they will probably not last long.

/Ricard

[**BETSY**]

Hi, OK have now fitted new bands and everything is turning in the right direction!

Next question- Settings.
I believe the tapes i have were recorded on a Mono system so looking to get the knobs and dials set-up correctly?
I haven't as yet been able to get any sound out of the system, using a din cable with a 3.5mm plug jack the other end.

The dials are moving a VERY small amount..

TIA

[**BETSY**]

Pin and Pin 4 are connected in the Din Plug.

[Sideband]

Originally Posted by **BETSY**

I haven't as yet been able to get any sound out of the system, using a din cable with a 3.5mm plug jack the other end.

The dials are moving a VERY small amount..

TIA

Not sure from previous threads if this machine is being connected to an amplifier? This is a deck only with pre-amps...no power stage or loudspeakers so needs to be connected to an amplifier. You will need to connect the line in/out socket (think it's a 5 pin DIN) to the tape or aux input of an amplifier via a suitable lead.

You can of course plug headphones in to the tapedeck and monitor the recording and playback.

Could you let us know exactly how you are connecting this deck into your system?


Rich.

[**BETSY**]

Hi Rich, I have connected the Din socket via the Linein/out on the back to my PC and a Boston acoustics powered speaker system, 2 satillite speakers and subwoofer.
the 3.5mm jack on the other end is a mono type, not sure if this will cause a problem when plugged into a stereo socket?

also another very basic question that im not sure about, are these tapes double sided or played in another orientation?

Thank you for everyones help once again

[**BETSY**]

Another update.

Have now plugged it into the Mic input of my PC to which you can boost the volume, tick box.
it is certainly louder but still fairly quiet.....

[Sideband]

DIN socket...pins 1&4 is Left/Right input. pins 3&5 are Left/Right output. Pin 2 is common earth/ground/chassis. Surely the input to your sound card is stereo? I don't know if the impedance will be correct though.

Think you need to check connections. Can you draw a circuit of the lead and how it's connected? If the input to your sound card is stereo (probably) then using a mono plug will short one input. May cause severe attenuation of the other channel depending on how it's wired.


Rich.

[**BETSY**]

Hi Rich, pin 2 is connected in the Din plug as is Pin 3, or 5, depending on how you look at the Plug.

Sound card is Stereo, i have no idea what the impedence is or what is needed?
i have a fairly good .Wav file of what i was after, my sister singing when she was around 3 years old, she is 36 now!

I'm unsure if its the equipment or the 30+ year old tapes are giving the bad sound quality? the age of the tapes won't be helping for sure....

TIA

[ricard]

The pin numbers on DIN connectors are confusing, as they were original 3-pin, and when the 5-pin version was launched the old pins retained their numbers with the new ones fitting in between. So the pin numbers are 1-4-2-5-3. Still, it's hard to figure out from which end they are numbered, so mentioning a given pin number while technically correct doesn't usually help very much.

The pin in the middle of the 5-pin semicircle (called 'pin 2', see above), is the ground or common pin. The two pins on one side are the right channel (closest the the ground pin) and left (farthest away), for playback (output from the recorder). The other two are for recording (input to the recorder), again with the right channel being closest to the ground pin, and left being further away. Which is which ... well it is well-defined of course, but there's one chance in two of getting it wrong, so it's almost better to experiment to get it right...

If you've gotten hold of a DIN-to-3.5mm-jack cable, chances are that it connects to the recorder's input pins rather than output. A slight amount of signal leaks through, though which would account for the low level you are experiencing. You'd need another cable or to rewire the DIN connector.

Also some recorders have more than one connector (can't offhand remember the story with the 4504); not all of the connectors are outputs.

/Ricard

[AndiiT]

Hi,
The Philips N4504 has a "line level" output available on two of the rear DIN sockets these are from the monitor socket, which (from memory) is the solitairy socket on the rear of the machine - Left and Right outputs are on pins 3 and 5 respectively with Pin 2 as common earth; the signal is also available on the same pins of the REC/PB socket during playback mode, which should have a DIN socket marked 'Remote Pause' or somthing similar next to it.

Regards
Andrew