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Old 4th Dec 2023, 5:07 pm   #1
GMB
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Default Emicol Set Analyser

I find myself with a slightly more difficult restoration project than anticipated.
Does anyone have any information on this device from the 30's ?

A manual would be good!
A circuit would be better!

Any information at all might help!
I am surprised by finding nothing almost nothing on the web.
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Old 4th Dec 2023, 8:48 pm   #2
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Hi George, a picture might help. I've had one or 2 set analysers in my time but not your particular one . I believe David Simpson also has some.

They basically allow the vale to be remotely located so that electrode measurements can be taken. Not sure how the extra cable lengths go down with RF stages !
My RCA version also includes a signal injector

Ed
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Old 4th Dec 2023, 11:40 pm   #3
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Here it is. Centre meter missing but I think I have one like it.
But the killer is that a lot of the internal interconnections have been chopped out for some reason, so I am having to guess the exact circuit.

I know roughly what it does but it is the detail that I am lacking.
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 9:31 pm   #4
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Hi George, similar in many respects to mine. It normally would hav a multicore cable attached terminated in a valvebase plug; several adapters then fitted on this plug to suit the base of the valve being investigated

Ed
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Old 5th Dec 2023, 11:31 pm   #5
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Yes, it has indeed got a valve plug with adapters. The cable goes through the large hole you can see. It isn't wired up though - and the wiring harness has been cut off (but I have it).

I am interested in the circuit of anything similar, and instructions too!

Mine has very few controls but it has a 2-pin plug that works in the voltmeter 3-way socket thing, and another one that terminates in probes (I guess as voltmeter and ohm meter). Not clear how the functions are switched. It does look like it had a battery but not clear what voltage yet.

The left meter is weird - looks like moving iron so working ac/dc with no rectifier - but unclear how it interfaces to the valve bits.
Anotherr mystery is how the (now missing) current meter worked.

I think all the resistors are present - all high-value wirewound jobs (like on the Mullard Test Board).
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 2:26 am   #6
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

That Emicol Set Analyser has some similarities with the Weston 547 - they are more or less from the same time period (late 20's, early 30's).

I could only find a reference to the Emicol in the radiomuseum.org website, that essentially points to some information from the Wireless World from August 1933. Probably that's all you got too.

It's very difficult to determine the Emicol features just by the looks, and I'm uncertain to what extent it will be similar to the Weston 547, but information for the latter seems to be more easily available, at least the schematics are.

Not really sure if the Weston will aid you in any way though, but it is the only thing I could find that seem to match more or less the looks, layout and time period of your Emicol.

Alex
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 10:43 am   #7
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

I was hoping that someone had one or had info on it.

The Emicol, unlike others, has very few controls. So it looks quite simple, but simple devices have a tendancy to be devious which makes working out how it worked from a shell quite hard.

The centre (current) meter has been removed and with it the associated wiring.

It is also very unclear how the a/c meter was to be used. It is not helping that it appears to have lost a lot of sensitivity, but I have never encountered such a strange moving-iron meter before.
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Old 6th Dec 2023, 12:15 pm   #8
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

As Ed says, I eventually acquired two "Roberts" Valve/Set testers(one from RW -David, and another from Ed). (See my Thread - Roberts Valve Tester - 14 Oct.2019). These were brought out in 1949 by Roberts(not the Radio maker) as "In situ" Testers. However, much simpler testers for just the "B" range of British valve bases appeared as far back as the 1920's.
Your Emicol is certainly a worthy vintage test equipment project. Should be easy enough(compared to the Roberts) to work out the circuit diagram. Stripped-out old B4/5, B6 & B7 valve bases from old knackered 20's/30's valves will lend themselves for making valve holder adaptors & radio to tester cabling.
Radios from the 20's & early 30's used battery supplies for Vf,(LT), -Vg, & HT. Into the 30's, with the onset of SG valves & later Hexode valves, we see the introduction of "Mains" radios & superhets & IO valve bases.
AVO's introduction of the "2Panel" Valve Tester pretty much saw off those old "in-situ" testers. And, certainly AVO's range of VCM's, plus Tailors & Mullards, were the death knell of the "Roberts" which wasn't in production for long(they went bust).
If you post info on the missing meter(dia., depth, & fsd), myself &/or other Forum folk might be able to find a replacement.

Regards, David
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Old 7th Dec 2023, 8:01 pm   #9
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Quote:
Originally Posted by David Simpson View Post
If you post info on the missing meter(dia., depth, & fsd), myself &/or other Forum folk might be able to find a replacement.
Thanks but there is no chance anyone will have one of these! Luckily I have a stock of meters including some with curved glass as the Emicol appears to do. But the Emicol is bizarre - the meters are skeletal and mounted on flat boards. The curved fronts are just fixed to the panel like port-holes and the meters themselves sit behind these windows on stand-offs. The worry is that any dirt getting inside the box could damage the meter movements.

I have now checked out the strange moving iron meter and realise that it is specifically to check the filamant voltage (hence the ac/dc capability). So its 11ohms/volt sensitivity is not such a problem!
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 11:52 am   #10
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

George, your tester is certainly an intriguing one, particularly the open construction of the metering. There are a number of valve testing, and vintage metering, enthusiasts on the Forum, myself included. Hopefully, someone can come up with a replacement meter for you. You could also try the VMARS Forum site, as perhaps some early pre- WW2 military equipment contained such metering. Tis a great pity that the RAF Henlow Museum(like HMS Collinwood) has closed down. Back in the day, Henlow was the main UK Test Equipment MU for the RAF. Alf Fisher was the guy to speak to.
Dennis Tabor(sadly no longer with us) would've been the valve testing guru to seek advice from. He had a great multi-page article in the Winter 2001 BVWS Bulletin Magazine. I've had a good shufti through it, but nothing on your Emicol. He does feature an early "Cleartron" valve tester, and a "Six - Sixty" Valve & Set Tester. If someone has the remains of either - might be of some use to you. There is also the Maritime Wireless Museum at Fort Perch Rock on Merseyside( between Birkenhead & New Brighton) which might hold info on similar MI metering.

Regards, David
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 12:49 pm   #11
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Quote:
Tis a great pity that the RAF Henlow Museum(like HMS Collinwood) has closed down.
Is that true? Their web site says MAY 2024.

I have never seen these open-frame meters before, even on ancient stuff.
But the big problem is that the missing current meter has also taken away the wiring and it is not clear how the current meter works. The voltmeter also has a spare-time ohms agenda but not clear how that works either! It had a single battery maybe about the size of a 4.5V cycle lamp battery but the wiring is gone too.

I think someone intended to cut it up for parts but probably realised that its parts were not really very useful, so put it away.

My other device of this period is the Mullard Master Test Board (aka Philips Cartomatic) - the ultimate late 1930's programmable test system.
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 3:33 pm   #12
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Right enough George, the Museum has a few months remaining. However, the RAF MU(where Alf Fisher used to work) closed a while back. Thus the MOD put the Museum's future in jeopardy.
I wonder if the Mullard Master Test Board was in some ways the forerunner of their HSVT & it's punched card system for valves. Have you had a thread out about it in the past ?
I re-purposed the two Roberts testers into one big multi-functional tester. Yep, it worked fine, but the test procedure is jolly laborious to obtain info on a valve's condition & a radio's circuitry voltages, etc. Having to use a decently long 10 wire extension lead between a set & the tester does incur some voltage losses. Now packed in an adapted h/d suitcase, and hidden away under a bed. If I could give it away to a "collect only" keen valve testing enthusiast - I would.
It would be great if you could restore your Emicol. Being mainly just B4/B5 valve orientated, it should be easy enough to reverse engineer a circuit diagram &/or modify it. Once working, it would be really interesting to see how it's valve testing function compared with say an AVO VCM.
Back in the late 20's & early 30's, many of the valve manufacturers supplied wee Gm(mA/V) graphs, either pasted to the outside of the multi-coloured boxes, or stuffed inside. If a restored Emicol, or Cleartron, or Six Sixty could be compared to those original valve factory DC Tester's results- what a great winter project.

Regards from an arm twisting David
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 4:21 pm   #13
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Yes, the B4/B5/B6/B7 aspect makes it simple (less obvious how B7 works for double valves).

But as for reverse engineering - this is not useful. My problem is that each meter has some local circuit for it and a patch socket. This is all pretty simple stuff.
The killer is the missing current section - and its interconnections. It too appears to have a patch socket connector - so not clear how that would work.

Then we have the 2 pairs of sockets labelled R and the G button. There is a single component still present, what maybe a 350 ohm resistor, that the G button un-shorts. One side goes to the R sockets at the top. No clues beyond that. I see the G button as adding some grid bias to get a gm reading (similar to the MTB).

But this device is not a general valve tester but rather a circuit tester. I am fairly sure it never had an HT supply.

The bottom R+ and R- sockets must be to do with its resistance measuring feature. I wondered about the ohms scale and then realised it must be to compensate for a failing battery rather than being about the 3 ranges (for voltage).
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 5:22 pm   #14
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Right enough, I don't think these set testers had their own mains supply & subsequent HT. The Roberts certainly didn't. And now hybridised - still doesn't.
Although I did fit an internal variable -ve Vg rechargeable battery pack for accurately determining mA/V. The cycle lamp battery in your tester would've powered a resistance measuring function, and maybe had a Vg function. Those old B4 Triodes, in basic table-top wirelesses, and certainly the early bright emitter & dull emitter ones all had the same valve pin connections(AVO code 6423). Some circuits derived grid bias from the 2V Filament supply & some had no bias at all. Many had sub-unity mA/V. They drew just a handful of mA Ia, and sourced HT from a dry battery which gave out maybe between 60 & 120V. So the ohms/volt &/or current accuracy exhibited by moving iron meters wouldn't have been that important. I actually flogged a huge big wooden-cased ex WD M/I Voltmeter at WB back in the spring. (Didn't make much). But checking against an AVO8 MM & an AVO DMM - proved to be jolly accurate. Back in those old times, some ammeters used a bi-metal strip mechanism with a metering linkage similar to a Bourdon Tube depth gauge(wot I ad when I wis a commercial diver).
I would certainly encourage you to persevere. I would also encourage Forum readers to delve into their old junk boxes & see if they can help you out with bits & bobs.

Regards, David
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 8:27 pm   #15
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Hi Gents, attached some photos of my RCA analyser type LZ12B
This is probably later than yours George, and is intended for octals only.
The plug head and multicore is shown in one of the compartments and it came with 4 other adaptors,2 (octal to octal) and 2 octal to UX4 and UX4 to octal.
It looks to be self powered and has various tatty connector leads associated with it.
No instructions with it .Parts are housed in the lid and the main body, adaptors are in a nice chromed tube

There is also another analyser in the pile somewhere of a similar type, again no instructions

Ed
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Old 8th Dec 2023, 8:56 pm   #16
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

As I commented back in post 8, AVO's range of robust & reliable Valve Testers & VCM's, stretching from the 1940's through to the i960's, pretty much were the death knell for these set & valve testers/analysers. Mullard HSVT's & Taylors also played their part. Not to mention the surplus WW2 Hickoks which became available in the UK.
However, these old 20's/30's testers still deserve tlc & restoration if possible. As they have their place in vintage radio/electronics. Lets face it, its not rocket science to repair/restore the likes of DAC90's, A22's, Ferranti 145's, and many of the post-war woodies, etc. But something with complicated switchgear & wiring from yesteryear - now that's a challenge. Great winter projects, eh ?

Regards, David
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Old 9th Dec 2023, 3:29 pm   #17
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

The RCA one looks like it's aimed at servicing cinema sound systems.
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Old 9th Dec 2023, 7:45 pm   #18
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Default Re: Emicol Set Analyser

Yes, could be as it is from RCA Photophone Ltd

Ed
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