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Clubs, Groups and Societies For discussions about various clubs, groups and societies relating to our hobbies, such as the BVWS (incl RetroTechUK), BATC, RSGB, APTS, CLPGS, THG, TCC, BECG, MCR21 etc. This is NOT an official forum for any of these organisations.

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Old 8th Dec 2017, 11:45 am   #41
Phil G4SPZ
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

The appeal of auctions is very much dependent on whether you are in 'acquisition mode' or 'disposal mode'. At my personal stage of my vintage radio 'career' I am firmly in the latter camp. Sadly, my own experience of selling sets via a Radiophile auction wasn't particularly positive nor financially rewarding. Potential buyers have to sit through several hours of bidding even if they are only interested in one lot - yes, I know you can come and go, but sometimes lots come under the hammer at unpredictable times so the risk always exists that you could miss bidding on your coveted item. The fastest practical rate that a good auctioneer sells items is about 100 lots per hour, so in the case of the 600 lots at the Radiophile auction, that's a minimum of six hours...

I'm only highlighting these issues because I think they are relevant, and partly explain why attendance at auctions generally doesn't seem to be increasing. As 'we' get older, perhaps 'we' are less likely to be buying sets anyway.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 1:05 pm   #42
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

I believe you've hit on a significant point here Phil. The auction process does at times deviate significantly from the order in the catalogue, which makes management of one's time, judging when to pop out and back in, rather difficult. A midday start with an auction rate of 100 items per hour would at best mean an 18:00 finish if there are 600 items to be auctioned. That's too late for many of those people facing a long journey home, particularly in winter, which can't help in securing support in clearing up.

Some, hopefully helpful, suggested ways forward:
- use a single sequence lot numbering system, as used by auctioneers who have been at this game for generations, to increase 'lot time' predictability
- publish the catalogue online
- offset the loss in catalogue income by increasing the entry fee and/or charging a modest buyer's auction fee
- start earlier in the day, which should be possible if the set-up is done, as seems to be the case, the day before

Regards,
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 1:12 pm   #43
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

I think that is absolutely true Phil - if you look at the prices obtained at the auctions compared to similar items sold online, the price differentials are often incredible. Of course the problem with eBay and the like is that items have to be stored, packed etc., so there is a lot more labour involved than sending them to Chas or the BVWS. Large auction houses now often link to online auctions, but that is clearly not viable on a small scale.

I am actually surprised that more dealers don't attend these auctions as I'm sure with the right infrastructure (storage & packing facilities etc.) in place, there is, on the face of it, serious money to be made. When I moved house a few years ago and had to sell off a few sets I must admit I used eBay - I got an average of between about 10 and 20 times the price of similar sets at the Radiophile or BVWS auctions.

If I was buying, though, sitting through hours of lots to get a bargain would (at least sometimes) be worthwhile. And of course you can always put commission bids on in advance and just turn up near the end of the auction to see what the results were and collect whatever you won.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 1:23 pm   #44
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

Richard

Lot numbers were originally in order - they were changed as lots aren't generally stored by Chas, but bought up on the Saturday (and sometimes Sunday) and so arrive totally out of order leading to situations where not enough space was left to keep them in order. By using the codes, this problem goes away. Also lots were sometimes (often?) put in-between other lots for various reasons causing confusion. While the current method isn't perfect, it does at least solve most of the problems and lots do now tend to be sold in the order on the catalogue.

I've already said why the catalogue won't be published online and I don't see that changing.

When Rob took over the auction, he did charge a buyers fee for non-subscribers of the catalogue and it was very badly received. Chas won't accept that again, and looking at it realistically, it will likely only mean bidders offering less anyway, with no nett gain.

If the start time was earlier there would be less time for viewing and the people with stalls wouldn't have time to make many sales, so again would probably cause more upset than any sort of gain.

Also none of the suggestions really get to the bottom of the problem - the auctions probably work as well as can be expected given the nature of the goods sold and the number of interested people, but they are becoming more and more difficult for Chas to manage on his own.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 1:34 pm   #45
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

All understood Graham - it's a conundrum, with so many factors in play. If there's a desire to answer the implied question in the thread title, perhaps what's needed is a careful think-through of the relative order of importance of the objectives of the auctions, which might point the way to potential solutions.

In the meantime, I hope to be there on Sunday.

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Old 8th Dec 2017, 6:48 pm   #46
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

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Of course the problem with eBay and the like is that items have to be stored, packed etc., so there is a lot more labour involved than sending them to Chas or the BVWS.
That is probably the main thing potential sellers like, especially with estate clearances - no hassle! In recent BVWS auctions the majority of lots are estate sales.

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When Rob took over the auction, he did charge a buyers fee for non-subscribers of the catalogue and it was very badly received. Chas won't accept that again, and looking at it realistically, it will likely only mean bidders offering less anyway, with no nett gain.
I agree. Buyers premiums always cause confusion, and should be avoided. It is much easier for buyers to know the hammer price is the price they pay.

The BWS charge £5 entry, and have a minimum bid of £5 per lot.

We charge sellers 15% if they are BVWS members (or if it is the estate of a BVWS member, allowing for membership lapsing when the member became unwell) or 20% for non-members. We also charge expenses for collections, and sometimes a small amount towards storage (depending on quantity and value).

I believe Mike is becoming more picky with the items collected, so we don't have auctions full of low value rubbish. If it is unlikely to sell for at least £5 it is not worth transporting, storing and lotting.
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Old 8th Dec 2017, 8:29 pm   #47
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

On the few occasions I've sold sets, working or not, in good or poor condition, it's been at a local auction house in their 'collectibles sale' where they've attained prices above my expectations. Like most auction houses, they do on-line bidding so it isn't just people in the room bidding against each other - it's the room against internet bidders. If your lot doesn't sell, you just pay the internet listing fee, which I think is 75p from memory. No hassles of packing and shipping, no risk of damage in transit, no disputes that the item is not as described, no need to travel long distances to vintage radio auctions.

But of course, at vintage radio auctions there's just radio stuff, and I guess a core if die-hard bidders, though as I said earlier, at the two auctions I attended, most of the sets that I saw sold went to a just couple of bidders, as did most of the quite large lots of valves - lots too large and diverse in scale for mere 'restorers'. Most of those in the room were like me - just interested spectators, rather than active bidders. Same at all auctions I guess, and same on e-bay. I often watch stuff I've no intention of bidding for, just out of curiosity.

As to Radiophile and BVWS auctions, as we've heard, such an inordinate amount of effort and organisation goes into them behind the scenes that most of us know little of.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 1:08 am   #48
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

Good evening,
I think we have to acknowledge that the world of vintage radio is dominated by older people. I attend Harpenden, RWB and the NVCF and it's very evident that most folk are over 60 and many well into their 70's or 80's. I'm 50 and you don't see many people my age or younger!
Consequently, there is ever more gear coming into the market as people die off and a decreasing amount of people who want that gear. Auction prices therefore fall. Most 'woodies' often fetch only £5 or £10 or don't sell at all even after Mike Barker's valiant (and entertaining) attempts to get higher bids.
I don't foresee a sudden rush by younger people into any of these 'old man' hobbies- I think much of the classic car world will suffer a similar fate as well. After all, most of us are involved because we have a connection to these items so nostalgia is the driving force.
I have great respect for Chas wanting to continue with the Radiophile and the auctions, but without young blood coming into the hobby, none of it, even the BVWS & NVCF will be viable in the future.
Sorry to be pessimistic, but I often get the impression that people think that the next generation will pick up the 'old technology' baton and that we are all somehow restoring sets for the future.
Sadly, I honestly don't think that will happen Most of the stuff, when the kids inherit it, if it won't sell on Ebay, will end up at the tip.
All the best
Nick

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Old 9th Dec 2017, 8:48 am   #49
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

Nick is spot on.

Here's a true story. A few years ago, four vintage radio enthusiast friends (two in our fifties, two in their seventies) shared my car to and from the NVCF. When we dropped off one of the 70-year-olds at home, he showed us round his large collection of sets awaiting restoration. The other 70-year-old asked, "Just how long are you planning on living?!" We chuckled.

Six months later we got the answer, and a year later our car-full of four was down to two.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 12:22 pm   #50
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

I also agree with Nick.

Although some younger people are interested in this stuff, it is evident from this forum that most people working with old radios are my age (62) or older. If you come to the hobby without any familiarity with valve technology (or even discrete components of any sort) then it will seem very alien and distant, and restoration will be analogous to restoring old water mills. It will become an increasingly specialist activity with fewer and fewer casual tinkerers.

We also need to accept that a lot of the gear we work on is essentially valueless. Old radios were made in vast numbers and continue to be found. They aren't very practical in everyday use and most take up a lot of space. When we talk about preserving such things for the future, we are really just rationalising our enjoyment of working with this technology. The future isn't interested.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 12:46 pm   #51
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

Wise words, Paul.

For the record, I was around forty when I started messing about with old radios (I've never considered myself a "Restorer") but that was following a life-time's interest in electronics, history and antiques.

I've all but stopped now due to lack of space and use for the sets that I have done-up.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 2:04 pm   #52
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

Sobering thoughts. There'll probably always be a hard core, Antiques Roadshow and similar programmes illustrate the theory, but perhaps the run of the mill sets will gradually disappear. Early transistor sets are now 60 years old, and much easier to store so perhaps the focus will drift in that direction.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 2:06 pm   #53
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

When I joined the BVWS in the mid 80's I was one a new generation of younger members having not yet turned 30 I had already been collecting for more than 15 years by that time. Joining the BVWS accelerated my acquisitions.

I reckon I restored 20 sets a year then despite having too small children overseas work and lots of overtime.

Now I struggle to restore 5 sets a year the time goes so fast my rountuit pile means I will need to continue for at least another 80 years at this rate

Everything that's been said about younger members I agree with and there was a debate a few years ago about how to make the BVWS (and the same would apply to Radiophile) more accessible to younger people who just want to consume content.

The trouble is creating content is hard work and very time consuming.

I regularly take set into the office as well as documents and a lot of the young programmers and office staff are interested but only at a superficial level, they don't want to actually get involved.

Most of the hardware engineers are a full generation older so have seen a lot of this stuff before.

I am not sure there is an answer although the whole "Retro" idea does at least out a possibility of more interest.

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Old 9th Dec 2017, 2:40 pm   #54
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

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Most of the stuff, when the kids inherit it, if it won't sell on Ebay, will end up at the tip.

Nick
It takes time and effort to identify stuff, photograph it, describe it and put it on eBay. The biggest hassle of all is packing it and posting it out.

So I think stuff is more likely to go straight in a skip. Its value is tiny when compared to the value of an inherited house or even a car.

I've seen the writing on the wall. I'm selling off almost all my restored sets while there are still buyers around.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 3:01 pm   #55
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

As with anything, there will always be a (small scale) demand for objects of beauty and rarity. Thus, the more run-of-the-mill sets will go the same way as all other mass-produced items. The exceptional and the well-designed will continue to be desirable, although it's more than possible that they will increasingly be converted for other uses, rather than restored as was. In this connection, am I the only person to have noticed a seeming flood of Ekcos on the market?

More properly on topic, I hope to see fellow forum members at Gnosall tomorrow. If we all bring walking sticks, walking frames, tartan rugs, and tartan glass-lined thermos flasks, in accord with our average age, I'm sure all will be well.

Regards,
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 3:05 pm   #56
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Default Re: Radiophile Auction - The future

You rotter Graham! That merely shifts the same problem onto whoever buys them. We'll wind up with a game of pass the parcel, landing the whole lot onto whoever is the youngest. And then the whole lot, pre-war TVs, spy sets and all goes on the heap.

I've got a few sets I like and use and a set with a special personal connection. but you're making me wonder about a Racal RA1792 in the attic. I don't use it, I don't actually like it, I shouldn't be sitting on it.

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Old 9th Dec 2017, 3:12 pm   #57
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The radios won't be the real problem David. There'll be literally tons of machine tools to be disposed of.

Best stay on topic though.
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 4:17 pm   #58
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I also agree with Nick.

Although some younger people are interested in this stuff, it is evident from this forum that most people working with old radios are my age (62) or older. If you come to the hobby without any familiarity with valve technology (or even discrete components of any sort) then it will seem very alien and distant, and restoration will be analogous to restoring old water mills. It will become an increasingly specialist activity with fewer and fewer casual tinkerers.

We also need to accept that a lot of the gear we work on is essentially valueless. Old radios were made in vast numbers and continue to be found. They aren't very practical in everyday use and most take up a lot of space. When we talk about preserving such things for the future, we are really just rationalising our enjoyment of working with this technology. The future isn't interested.
Well, I guess I'm a "youngster" at 55

To be honest though, most people my age even aren't interested in this stuff either. I'm from the "transistor era". The only reason I latched onto valves was an odd obsession with getting a working telly going in my bedroom in the early 70s and the input of an elderly uncle who taught me valve theory.

Most people (even electronics engineers) that I know are scared rigid of high voltages and would rather boil their heads than poke about in a valve radio, let along a TV !

It goes further than our hobby though. It's impacting the "day job" as well. I work in a "big physics" installation on the magnet power converters (used to guide electron beams).

The Technical Division (covering power converters, power RF, vacuum systems, high voltage distribution, scientific computing (mainly Linux) etc. ) average age must be older than I am ! Recruitment into a lot of the disciplines is difficult to say the least .
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Old 9th Dec 2017, 7:32 pm   #59
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Well, I guess I'm a "youngster" at 55
Nah thats me, 43
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Old 10th Dec 2017, 1:39 am   #60
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Would the babies on this site please behave and all buy lots of stuff at Gnosall.
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