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Old 26th Jul 2009, 1:23 pm   #121
Heatercathodeshort
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

Well I was ready for my close up...

Its only a laugh and I can't think of a better guy to put our case over than our very own J.B. It was not a very serious contest as such and any pre war Television receiver in working order could have been number one. Somebody had to 'tread the boards' and in the process gain 1500 hours of well earned fame. I think it would have been the finish of me! Jeffrey was very brave to tweak his set up and take up the challenge. Well done! It is great to see some interest in these old receivers after all these years.
Strange thing is the BBC didn't want to know when the 405 service closed. I had some discussion with them at the time but they were not interested. It was only a few days after switch off that I had a timid phone call asking me if I had taken any off screen pics from my 900. I had and they have them! Its taken 24 years to realize the significance of the 405 line television service but its never too late.
Now where are those dark glasses........?

Regards, John.
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Old 26th Jul 2009, 10:05 pm   #122
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Originally Posted by Heatercathodeshort View Post
Strange thing is the BBC didn't want to know when the 405 service closed. I had some discussion with them at the time but they were not interested. It was only a few days after switch off that I had a timid phone call asking me if I had taken any off screen pics from my 900. I had and they have them! Its taken 24 years to realize the significance of the 405 line television service but its never too late.
This is possibly encouraging. The BBC seem to be very confused about the history of the television service and some time back made a complete of the comparison tests between the Baird 240 line and the EMI 405 line electronic systems. To them it seems that Baird never got beyond 30 line mechanical television whereas he did produce a credible alternative to the EMI scheme, even if it wasn't the winner of this competition.

Edward
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Old 26th Jul 2009, 10:41 pm   #123
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The BBC seem to be very confused about the history of the television service and some time back made a complete of the comparison tests between the Baird 240 line and the EMI 405 line electronic systems.
This is really a subject for a new thread. Assuming the basic facts are accepted as correct there really wasn't any contest. M-EMI had a fully engineered system with multiple moveable cameras. Lots of problems but fundamentally usable. Baird had a mixture of a very limited spotlight studio, intermediate film with all its limitations, notably the delay between shooting and transmission which made cueing a nightmare, and the Farnsworth image dissector which they never got to work properly and even if they had it would have been grossly insensitive. Baird had the better telecine but that's about it. The line and frame differences are all but irrelevant to this argument. The M-EMI kit would have worked perfecetly well at 240/25 progressive. The Baird kit physically could not have worked at 405/50 interlaced.
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 11:48 am   #124
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

I am really enjoying following this, it's great that public interest is finally being shown for something of such historical importance. It may even reveal a few more gems!

I wonder if they'll do a follow-up with a competition to find the oldest working colour set? They will be in for a surprise


Brian
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 1:05 pm   #125
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I wonder if they'll do a follow-up with a competition to find the oldest working colour set? They will be in for a surprise
Hi Brian,
The BBC started broadcasting colour in 1967. But could there be some older sets out there?

DFWB.
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 1:17 pm   #126
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

Look on Mikey405's site. There is a Bush colour set, A Philips K4 and an Ekco set.

Cheers,

Steve P.
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 1:21 pm   #127
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

If we exclude the possibility of a Baird mechanical or telechrome based colour set there are several surviving TVs from the 1950s colour trials.

I somehow don't think Digital UK will be bothered to run this competition.
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 6:43 pm   #128
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Hi all
The BBC started their 625 colour service in 1967 but they were transmitting experimental 405 colour in 1961 when I first went to Lime Grove Studios (those were the days). Studio H was the colour studio with racks of valve kit taking up acres of space - the Marconi SPG, I remember, used plug-in bi-stables, each with a 12AT7 mounted on a large Jones plug inside a cover. It must have taken at least half a 19" wide rack (about 20RU or 35"). That was when a one input three output video distribution amplifier took up 5RU (8.75"). John Tanner of Link Electronics fame worked there as did Brian Pethers who invented the Russian NIR system before they did!
We know that some of the receivers still exist so those must be the oldest colour sets in the UK.
Cheers
Brian
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Old 27th Jul 2009, 7:08 pm   #129
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.... racks of valve kit taking up acres of space - the Marconi SPG, I remember, used plug-in bi-stables, each with a 12AT7 mounted on a large Jones plug inside a cover. It must have taken at least half a 19" wide rack (about 20RU or 35").
Brings home what was needed in those days. I wonder how this compared with the size of the AP kit in 1936. Makes receivers look very simple indeed, except that the manufacturing priorities were (and are) different.

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....as did Brian Pethers who invented the Russian NIR system before they did!
Had a feeling we've been here before in the forum
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...hlight=pethers
See also Carnt & Townsend "Colour Television" Volume 2

This really needs to spawn a new thread on TV studio kit etc if we take it much further.
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 5:35 pm   #130
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Hi John,

Yes, I think it was a 9" set but the title "Marconi 700" was simply a guess on the part of the owner because the number 700 was otherwise unused.

Peter
The images used in post #108 also appear at the early television museum link below:

http://www.earlytelevision.org/marconi_prototype.html

I seem to remember hearing that Gerry Wells had looked at the listing for this receiver when it was offered for sale at online auction, and he thought it may have been developed to assess quality at broadcast (possibly a relay point) rather than for domestic reception.
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 7:41 pm   #131
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

But why develop a special 9" set for studio use when you also have a 12" under development?

Peter
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 7:54 pm   #132
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I seem to remember hearing that Gerry Wells had looked at the listing for this receiver when it was offered for sale at online auction, and he thought it may have been developed to assess quality at broadcast (possibly a relay point) rather than for domestic reception.
I also find this doubtful. The monitors visible in the classic photos of the AP installation are directly viewed, not via mirrors. They look like 9" though I suppose they could be 12". I don't know what provision was made for "off air" monitoring before the war but there cannot have been much need for it with only a single TX.
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 8:30 pm   #133
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I don't know what provision was made for "off air" monitoring before the war but there cannot have been much need for it with only a single TX.
There's a glimpse of a Baird T5 in 'Television Comes to London'.

Also here's a 702 at AP - see attachment. I like to think this could even be 'my' 702 - it's got a scratch on the cabinet exactly where mine had, before restoration. Like mine I think this one doesn't have a standards switch. But see what you think...

Steve
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 8:38 pm   #134
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

I'm convinced Steve, definitely earlier than October 1938.

Here's another view of the control desk monitor from August 1936. Definitely bigger than 9".

Peter
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Old 29th Jul 2009, 9:08 pm   #135
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

When the BBC did an outside broadcast such as Wimbledon tennis they erected the 'bedstead' aerial on the top of a fire escape ladder to transmit the signal back to A.P. via a receiving station at Highgate. The signal was received back from A.P. direct to the O.B. van and was received via a standard 'H' aerial erected close to the van. Not sure what the monitor sets were but the 901 was quite a compact receiver. I have a picture somewhere of a 900 being used as a monitor at A.P. during a transmission. J.
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 8:22 am   #136
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

Peter Carlton in the SW, John Wakely in Sussex - I think there's a price on David Boynes' head now for the NE but he's gone to ground. Or should that be earth
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 8:28 am   #137
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there cannot have been much need for it with only a single TX.
..and the set in question had no back panel and no obvious way that a back panel would have been attached to it. Definitely smells more like a prototype than a special studio monitor.

Peter
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Old 30th Jul 2009, 9:49 am   #138
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

Oops! The control room picture in #134 is the Baird system vision monitor.

Peter
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Old 1st Aug 2009, 9:22 am   #139
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A couple more pictures from the main photo session. You can see the EHT bodgery and non-authentic cap changes. EHT section restoration will be possible, thanks to Ed Dinning, Ian B and others. Making the electrolytics look nice may be more of a problem.
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Old 1st Aug 2009, 9:27 am   #140
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Default Re: The oldest working Television in the UK

I just found this ->

http://fin.afterdawn.com/uutiset/arkisto/18560.cfm

You really have become quite famous, it seems. This article in its various translations has probably saved a few old tv's from the skip around the world. A remarkable achievement. Congratulations!

Timo
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