Suitable Tape Stock for 1960's Reel to Reels ?

[Keith1973]

Hi,

Can modern tape stock (black backed) be used in vintage Grundig machines ? eg Zonal 675 on 5 inch 600ft spools or Ampex 456 stock (10.5 inch spools transferred onto smaller reels).

My Grundig TK120's heads have started to clog very quickly within about a minute or so when I use this black backed tape but are fine when using much older shiny backed tape stock.

When I first got this machine the Zonal stock seemed fine, in fact was giving a much clearer sound with less level fluctuations than the older stock which had been recorded over many times.

But now 2 years later it seems some of the black backed tapes I've got are shedding and the sound goes from crisp and loud to flat and quiet extremely quickly. Although not sure what brand of tape stock these reels contain, there is nothing written on the spools and they are not Zonal branded ones just very generic looking ones so I'm guessing it's the Ampex stock that was taken from a larger reel.

I've got 2 brand new Zonal tapes still sealed that I could try out, but was wondering if anyone had any experience of using more modern tape stock on older machines. As I'm sure I read somewhere about "back-coated" tapes not being suitable.

Thanks,

Keith.

[TIMTAPE]

I think there may be more than one issue here.

Problems with "sticky shed" are usually associated with back coated tapes. The binder is hygroscopic and the more moisture is absorbed from the atmosphere over time, the worse they get. The back coating seems to also have a role in making the "sticky shed" problem worse.
But that doesnt mean all back coated tapes are sticky shed prone.

Back coated tapes arent really good on machines with felt pressure pads on the heads. Tends to be too much friction where the pads scrape against the back coating.

Back coated tapes may require more recording bias than an old tape recorder is capable of producing, meaning weak, thin sound. Also for the same reason the old machine may not be able to fully erase old recordings.

Cheers Tim

[brenellic2000]

I agree 100% with Tim. Zonal/Ilford-Zonal/Racal Zonal always was very good tape, but are these 'Zonal' tapes new, old stock or recently bought from Zonal Media off e-Bay (they are now distributors)?

If the later, then have a word with them as they maintain it is their own tape and I doubt very much they would pass-off another branded tape.

If secondhand, then it is quite likely someone else has respooled them.

Barry

[TIMTAPE]

Small correction to my post above. I said back coated tapes might not record or erase well on an older machine. I should have said newer high energy tapes.
Of course these newer tapes usually were back coated anyway, back coating being a later development so what I said is probably generally true but in the interests of accuracy I thought I should make the clarification.

It's not the back coating though that might make them not record or erase as well on an older machine, just the higher bias/erase requirements of the magnetic coating.

Cheers Tim

[brenellic2000]

The matt, carbon black back-coat was developed for high-end pro-decks to improve spooling and reduce static; as Tim says the oxide coercivity was aimed at professional use rather than domestic.

Personally, I always use BASF LGS35 or LP35LH gloss backed (brown not black) on all my older decks. They are superb tapes and plentiful stocks around in good condition.

Barry

[paulsherwin]

I agree that LP35 would be a good choice for most vintage domestic machines, and there's plenty of it about secondhand. It doesn't seem to suffer from degradation.

80s Japanese domestic formulations like Maxell XL will also perform well, particularly at lower speeds. They will be underbiased when recording but this can improve subjective performance where some HF rolloff is present.

Professional formulations of any sort aren't usually a good choice for domestic machines.

[bobbyball]

A lot of the (even "new old stock") Ampex tapes sheds terribly now due to reasons already gone into. The "Zonal" tapes I got from the BBC years ago are still doing OK, but they are not back coated...

Robert

[Ted Kendall]

I have to admit the palm for long term durability probably goes to BASF. I rescued a huge collection of recordings a few years back, nearly all of which was on BASF LGS35 and its successors. There were no problems with physical degradation at all, although I believe the first few batches of LP35LH, around 1967-8, had oxide shedding probelsms, which were swiftly dealt with.

[ben]

I've used back coated tapes on older pressure pad deck designs on occasion, and to be honest haven't noted any problems, neither friction nor erasure/frequency response.

There was considerable improvement in tape quality/formulations/coercivity through the 70s, and using such later tapes will often give old domestic machines a new lease of life, since the top end is what usually suffers at low speeds. Any way of tweaking out a bit more 'sparkle' is handy! In this regard, I like Scotch 203 and 407, Agfa PE-46 and PER-4 and pretty much any BASF.

As to shedding, you tend to get either brown oxide rub-off (had this with a few late 70s BASFs and a Braun labelled tape) or squeaky, sticky black tar hell (some Ampex, scotch etc). The former often goes away after a few passes and sometimes cleaning the tape via a piece of cotton during fast winding helps.

Just avoid the likes of Tandy concertape, shamrock, International etc. and you should be fine.

[Keith1973]

The snag with the Grundig is the 5.75inch spool capacity and so much of 2nd hand stock seems to be on 7inch spools.

The Zonal tapes I've got are also ex-BBC stock so they must be genuine Zonal stock. I've got 2 new 5inch (600ft) reels un-opened and still sealed in their plastic bags so I might do a test with one of those since they've not been exposed to the air to absorb any moisture.

[jamesperrett]

If you have another machine that will handle 7" spools you could always wind the tape onto 2 5" spools. They're available new from

http://www.svsmedia.orangehome.co.uk/wa4a.htm

and they also have new tape available at

http://www.svsmedia.orangehome.co.uk/wa2a.htm

[Keith1973]

Does anyone know anything about Zonal 846 tape ?

It's listed as "not back coated", so would this be a more suitable tape to use in a Grundig TK-120 than the more common black backed types ?

Thanks.

[mrmagnetophon]

The problem is with Black oxide tapes is it requires alot of bias, and the smaller machines and tube machines can't supply that much bias, unless its a very big machine. In which case i'm sure you would be changing tubes alot.
-Chris

[djwells01]

This link - http://www.spita.eu/rmgi/comparison.html compares different types/brands of tape, hope that's of some use.

Duncan

BTW, Pyral in France now produce or distribute RMGI products.

[Keith1973]

Thanks for that. So they list Zonal 846 as non-backcoated general purpose double play tape. So looks like it could be suitable as it's not under the professional range.

I've already tried out a couple of spools of Zonal 675 which seem to be ok but are very toppy in tone quality but it erased the old recordings ok.

That site lists Zonal 675 as BBC type 200 specification under analogue radio broadcasting. Sort of makes sense since these were old BBC stock, I guess manufactured to their own specifications.

[ricard]

I agree that the lack of available good tape on 6" (or 5 3/4" as it is sometimes termed) shouldn't be a hassle, first of all, there should be lots of BASF LP35LH available in that size, and secondly, empty reels are fairly easily to obtain if nothing else then off eBay. One could even buy any brand of used tape cheaply, chuck the actual tape and keep the reels.

As for having something that can handle 7" reels even if your machine can't, if you have a record player lying around, you can just place the reel on the turntable and use it as a supply reel while transferring from the larger to smaller reel.

[Tim]

Emitape 4 if you can get it.

[Tractorfan]

Hi,
I've been messing around with domestic tape recorders since my teenage and have never considered what tapes to use with what machine. I have a big box of 'em here and, apart from the physically worn out ones and the back coated ones that squeal on certain decks, they all sound reasonably good to me.
Among the stuff I've been given or bought at flea markets over recent years are: Tudortape, Realistic, Mastertape, Ampex (NOS), Zonal. The rest is a motley assortment of: Ampex, BASF, Emitape, Philips, Grundig, Scotch, etc. All of various vintages and states of decrepitude.
Needless to say, I'm not a serious tape recordist
Cheers, Pete