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Old 4th May 2020, 3:08 pm   #1
ChristianFletcher
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Default Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

I bought a really nasty looking woodworm infested radio. I don’t plan on hiding the extremely distressed state of the radio but instead try to make a feature out of the damage.


Now I am planning on using heat treatments to kill the woodworm but does anyone know at what temperature the plywood will delaminates or the veneer lift. From my studies 50c will kill most bugs and 62c everything. I was going to put it in the oven for 8hrs as is recommended

Depending on how bad and soft the cabinet is I will probably inject it with epoxy and reinforce the interior using epoxy if required

I know that this distressed look isn’t to many people’s liking but I think it will make an interesting experiment etc. Fingers crossed it will be as totally awful as the pictures suggest.

Thanks Regards Chris
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Old 4th May 2020, 3:14 pm   #2
Cobaltblue
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

That looks like a Masteradio D110W

Nice little set I prefer the wood to the Bakelite version.

I would be interested in how your experiment works out I suspect its gonna be close to melting the cow glue holding the case together.

Cheers

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Old 4th May 2020, 3:19 pm   #3
ChristianFletcher
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Thanks Mike.

I’m not afraid to use chemicals but there is a lot of debate as to both the effectiveness and if drying out the wood is good enough. But the heat method will kill the worm just unsure will the cabinet’s survive the process.

Unless it’s at the costly extreme end of the Art Deco styling I find Bakelite dull brown and entire unappealing but it’s good we all like different things. Oops that’s me excommunicated!
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Old 4th May 2020, 3:53 pm   #4
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Freezing it will also kill any grubs left, which I doubt there are.
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Old 4th May 2020, 4:41 pm   #5
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

They’re ‘flight holes’ where - after the grubs spent maybe four years devouring the timber internally turning into ‘frass’, the fine dust that is their excrement - they pupated into adult beetles and bored their way out to carry on their brief life cycle to meet, mate, infest more timber then die.

Some may argue that ‘it’s better to be safe than sorry’, and will use ‘woodworm killer’ or other means, but unless the holes have clean white holes and signs of recent frass, they will have departed many decades ago. It would be a remarkable coincidence, having infested timber covered with so many flight holes, for those holes to have been so recent that there are still a few stragglers in there, which have yet to emerge. You can always put it in a clear plastic bags for a week or two to see if any beetles or frass emerges.

Unfortunately the wood isn’t really ‘wood’ any more - it has no structural integrity and could easily be snapped to reveal a cloud of dust.

The beetles look for timber with 15% or higher moisture content in which to lay their grubs, and may find those conditions in a damp shed, but not in a modern home.

Every good wish whatever you do with it Chris.
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Old 4th May 2020, 6:51 pm   #6
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Thanks for great replies


I think I need to assume it’s still alive with worm and treat it according just be safe etc. Yes it may just turn into a pile of dust LOL. I’m trying to look into some of the salvage websites and restorations some people like this vintage wood. There are paint on chemical treatments that soak into the wood and make it go hard etc. If it’s really bad I was thinking of laying fibre glass on the inside so it in effect has a new internal support structure. It’s very much an experimental project. I just really like the distress of the finish on this radio. I will keep you all posted etc

I know a bit about woodworm etc but I just read a long thread article on here, even where evidence is produced there appears to still be widespread disagreement etc. Some say furniture beetle is happy in dry timber. Have to see how it goes a bit of charring May add to the effect etc.



Thanks Regards Chris
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Old 4th May 2020, 7:30 pm   #7
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Quote:
paint on chemical treatments that soak into the wood and make it go hard etc. If it’s really bad
They will kill any bugs too.
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Old 4th May 2020, 8:32 pm   #8
David G4EBT
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

For anyone so inclined, these links will help to gain an informed understanding based on facts rather than opinions about the life-cycle of what is commonly called 'furniture beetle' (Anobium Punctatum), though the beetles themselves do no damage, which is why we refer to it as 'woodworm' - the 3 - 5 year larval stage of the beetle's life cycle, which causes all the damage. After mating, the pregnant female lays her eggs in high moisture content timber, then dies. There's no evidence of an infestation until the grubs pupate and exit the timber, by which time the damage is done.

https://www.timberwise.co.uk/2008/03...-the-woodworm/

https://buildingconservation.com/art...m/woodworm.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_furniture_beetle

Incidentally, it's sometimes been claimed that woodworm can be killed by placing a radio cabinet in a freezer. Well yes, if the freezer will go down to Minus 20C. The preferred 'home' for beetles is in the sapwood of felled timber with a high moisture content. It gets well below freezing in forests and the grubs can cope well with that.

BVWS members may have seen the first part of an article in the Spring 2020 Bulletin by Gary Tempest, who skilfully restored a cabinet what had had woodworm.
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Old 4th May 2020, 10:07 pm   #9
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

The Natioal Trust suggested that the wood be put in the freezer for a week or two. I use a pump oil can to inject woodworm killer and when dryed out, i inject 50/50 white spirit/ boiled linseed oil. When this has dryed out, I do it again. This puts some strength into even powdered wood. Quick drying varnish may also work.
The holes are then filled and I have never seen any new ones.
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Old 5th May 2020, 7:37 am   #10
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

'They' love plywood, and an infestation can last for longer than in any other timber, perhaps 5 or 6 years. The damage seen on the surface represents 1/30th of the real damage inside, and the base pictured will be on the point of disintegration, saved up until now only by the inherent strength of the plies!
I prefer cold treatment to hot treatment. Wood hardener (not particularly cheap) in a tin is great stuff, as long as it penetrates deep enough it could save the integrity of the base. It may change the colour of the wood slightly but i don't think this will worry you here..

B&Q, for example, are still open (and relatively safe) but are not taking cash. If you needed to get food or fuel i can't see that combining journeys is against the spirit of the emergency legislation.

I have a feeling the cabinet may start to break up when the guts are removed- perhaps a coat of hardener applied from the outside before gutting it ?

Dave
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Old 5th May 2020, 11:33 am   #11
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

i really like the look of it.
i would be tempted to fill the holes with a dark wood filler and give the whole thing a light sanding.
Then use a redish purple guitar stain on it.
Then coat the whole thing in resin allowing the first few coats to be a slow drying product that would soak right in.
Would be a great project and could turn out really nice when finished.
Keep us updated on the process you do use and plenty of pics along the way.

Neil
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Old 3rd Jun 2020, 2:43 pm   #12
ChristianFletcher
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

I started on the Masteradio. I didn’t immediately realise the set makes use of a resistive line cord, horrible things.

So the case went in the oven for 5 hours at 60 degrees C. I pushed a thermocouple probe into one of the worm flight holes to check the internal temperature. My fan controlled oven doesn’t regulate well at the low end but kept between 63 and 77 C. In theory anything over 50c will kill the woodworm. I suspect death occurs quickly as the thin wood sections get up to temperature very quickly. I obviously don’t know if the eradication is successful but it really should be based on the science etc. Note this will kill the eggs as well as apparently the DNA is damaged rapidly above 50c

I was pleased the heat had no effect on the cabinet or the glue etc.

I did make a rather unusual video on the radio but it’s more about my back garden wildlife than radio repair but I enjoyed it for a change. Link below

https://youtu.be/GRYLdkwXzpI

I’m not planning on repairing the cabinet but I may plug the holes with wax so I can spot the appearance of new flight holes etc. But I think the oven method could be very good for small Radio cabinet and is non toxic and unlike freezings guaranteed to work etc.
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 12:03 am   #13
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

I enjoyed all aspects of the film Chris but once you got the set clear of the woodwork why operate in the grass The wood worm theme crops up all the time with dozens of opinions and really the level of insect expertise is truly impressive I've just soaked things in paraffin previously but it hasn't always worked I admit. On the other hand nothing seems to be fool proof.

It reminds me of "Dry" Rot found in one or two of my previous homes and predictions of doom and despondency plus major bills. Perhaps I was lucky. Woodworm can be very persistent too, there's no doubt but if I was soaked in something petrol based it's unlikely I would survive. A lot of it depends on how far gone the plywood was before you arrived [as already mentioned]. I've had failures with record deck motor boards but managed to preserve the outline. [Varnish is a good idea for wood as well] You've nothing to lose if you hang on to a wooden cabinet. It's not so easy with a house thought*

Dave
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 8:27 am   #14
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

As I understand it, woodworm do not like to live in furniture in dry, centrally heated houses. Why not keep the cabinet inside for enough time to be sure they have gone?

If there's no dust in or around the wholes then the infestation could be a long gone
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 8:39 am   #15
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Also regarding maximum temperature, I wouldn't go down this route. I think the glue bonding the veneer and the plywood layers together (hide glue?) would give away before the wood itself was damaged...
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Old 4th Jun 2020, 5:54 pm   #16
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Default Re: Plywood and veneers maximum temperature

Hi Thanks for the Comments. All I can say is the heat has had no effect on this radio cabinet I cannot speak for others. However this method is now the standard being offered as a commercial process for woodworm eradication.

Regards the dry house answer. There are several types of wood boring insects that go under the common name of wood worm. It appears the common furniture beetle can tolerate lower levels of humidity than others. I don’t think waiting for the appearance of more flight holes is something I would like to wait and see. Wait and see could also take two - three years depending on conditions and life cycle etc.

If you not in a hurry or are concerned about heat damage I would recommend the CO2 gas method as CO2 is cheaply available and I have this in stock for welding. This method is favoured by restoration for museum and delicate specimen but takes 3-4 weeks.


I may of said earlier I bought the radio because of the poor cabinet condition and want to preserve it as it is. I have done lots of shiny wood radios and want to try something different.

Dave - just fancied sitting in the shade under a tree, I will be doing the rest in the workshop. Although I am seriously thinking of carrying a battery set up a mountain and do a restoration there. Whatever floats your boat etc.

Thanks regards Chris
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