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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 7th May 2009, 8:15 pm   #1
reel_to_real
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Default 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Hello,

I'm looking into buying a 1" 8 track or 2" 16 track r2r recorder soon. Could anyone give me advice on my best avenues of research for someone like myself based in the UK? It seems as if Studer/Otari are more prevalent in the UK than the USA made machines such as Ampex/3M/Scully/MCI.

I'm also looking at a 1/4" 15 ips mastering machine (maybe 1/2" 15/30 ips). These seem quite easy to get hold of. Revox A77/B77/PR99 or Studer A 807 are currently top of the list. Any advice on a model/make I could be missing?

Thanks for your time,

Regards,

Rob
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Old 7th May 2009, 8:31 pm   #2
paulsherwin
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Studer pretty much owned the professional studio market in the 70s and 80s in Britain, both in broadcasting and studio recording. The Revox machines you quote are really semipro recorders.

I suppose it all depends what you intend to do with them. Are you planning to set up a 16 track analogue studio with analogue mastering to vinyl? That's a big task to take on.

Paul
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Old 7th May 2009, 9:06 pm   #3
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Hello Paul.

Yes we are looking into the possibility of setting up such a studio. 8 track recording is the ideal. Very simple set up of 8 track recorder / mics / preamps / mixer-console / monitors / mastering machine. Vinyl is an option or CD's made from the master tapes.

I understand it's a big task & have been researching for a quite a while now. I know that it would be quite an expensive venture to but with a few people involved this is reduced somewhat. If it turns out to be to much of a task then we would opt for a simpler set up & look into studios already in operation to do high quality recordings. Our ideal is to have our own set up though that we can record with any time of day (or night!).

Thanks for the quick reply,

Rob
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Old 7th May 2009, 10:39 pm   #4
Michael Maurice
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Before you embark on this project, remember that these machines are now 20 - 30 years old and may well be quite worn. I dont know about the OTARI's but Studer had an hours counter.

Remember professional machines are/were used daily and led a hard life.

Being professional machines, the spares are incredibly expensive as I recently found out when trying to obtain a spooling motor for a Revox A700.

Service manuals are available for Studers either in PDF format and in Paper format.

Some machines have a back up battery I think the A820's do and if this goes down all the electronic alignment settings are lost.

Ditto Revox A77, B77's, PR99 etc, Also the C270 series which replaced the A700 series and were slightly more professional than the PR99.

I'm not trying to put you off, just trying to point out the pitfalls in buying an older machine.
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Old 7th May 2009, 11:56 pm   #5
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

For mastering it wouldn't be a silly move to look at the Tascam BR-20. They were Tascams their last reel to reel, manufactured until about 2003/04, so your chances of finding a low mileage model are high. They are a very, very nice machine.

Alternatively the 32 isn't a silly move - because Tascam were more likely to be used in the small/home studio there's also a pretty good chance of finding a low mileage model.

I've use the A77 and B77 but they never really did it for me. The A77 is getting very elderly, and I honestly don't think the B77 is any better than the Tascams (and the Tascams seem to be more robust). Later ones are very rare here.

If you want 1/2" 2 track and/or 30ips some of the Tascam ATR models did this, but they were hitting the higher end market so are more likely to be well used. On the upside Tascam parts are more common than some other brands.

For your original request I suspect you're looking at a used pro machine, and you'll need to be comfortable with getting it back to peak condition and maintaining it. If you can drop down a size - say to 1/2" 8 track (TSR-8, 38 etc) or 1" 16 track (MS16) then you'll have a lot more options, although you may need to start looking at NR. Again the advantage of, say, the TSR-8 is that its relatively recent (probably no more than 20 years old) and more for small/home studios so low mileage versions will be more common.

I used an MSR-16 a bit and it was very nice to use - great transport - but with 16 tracks on 1/2" you have to use dbx - properly adjusted the onboard one is totally transparent but not a pro track width by any stretch of the imagination!
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Old 8th May 2009, 12:36 am   #6
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Thanks for the replies chaps.

Regarding the dropping down a size. We intend to use an old valve machine (probably a Ferrograph series 2-6) for 'lo-fi' recordings. Summing 1-4 mics via a mixer to record very basic tracks (acoustic guitar/vocals/minimal bass/percussion). I know someone close who can service these.

When wanting a high quality recording the idea would be to turn to the higher tape width/faster speed machine. Although I can see the relative ease of picking up a good Ferro & a good mastering machine I'm beginning to wonder if, for multi-tracking, it wouldn't be easier to buy a mid-high end audio interface or 8 channel a/d converter matched with some nice preamps. We are very much against the sound of most modern recordings. This however could be down to the way instruments/vocals are always close mic'ed; giving, we feel, an unreal recording. Albums/recordings we revere are early Dylan albums (recorded at Columbia Records 30th Street Studio on stuff like Ampex 300's-15/30ips 1/2"). In fact anything recorded here late 50's early 60's sounds great (Mile Davis!).

I wonder if one could get a good high quality recording that doesn't have that digital harshness on essentialy digital equipment ...Using tube mics/preamps & some nifty mic placement.

It's still easrly days with the research & we want to be 100% sure what we are buying will do the job.

Thanks again,

Rob
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Old 8th May 2009, 1:01 am   #7
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

I think this depends how much financial backing you have. This isn't going to be a cheap project. If you just want to replicate the sound of mid 60s studio recordings, you just need a valve desk (restoring this to original performance will be a task in itself) and you can then mix down to 2 track stereo during the take. This doesn't allow much in the way of overdubs but many classic albums were recorded this way.

Recreating a late 60s / early 70s multitrack studio will be *very* expensive. Studios like Abbey Road moved to digital in the 80s because it sounded better.

Paul
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Old 8th May 2009, 1:14 am   #8
reel_to_real
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Thats a good idea, tracking through a valve console. However it does limit mixing somewhat. That could be worked around though.

Regarding digital. It's easier to use, granted, but in my opinion I have yet to hear anything recorded after say mid-late 70's that sounds good. I could be wrong of course & if anyone could point me to some recordings after this time they think are quality I'd be interested to hear them,

Thanks again,

Rob
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Old 8th May 2009, 8:50 am   #9
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Quote:
Originally Posted by paulsherwin View Post
Studios like Abbey Road moved to digital in the 80s because it sounded better.

Paul
That interesting Paul, a couple of years ago to mark the 40th anniversary of The Beatles Seargent Pepper Album, younger musicians/artists were brought into the studio to do a remake.

Out rolled the original valve Studers and mixing desks.

The musicians commented that they heard that Analogue sounded better and now using this older equipment confirmed this.
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Old 8th May 2009, 9:19 am   #10
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Way back in the 1920s Peter Eckersley, the BBC's first chief engineer said: "The wider you open the window the more the muck flies in". Wisdom both then and now.

You may like a bit of background hiss, tape based distortion, vinyl tracing distortion etc. If you are creating a recording (as against trying to faithfully reproduce the sound present in the room) then you are entitled to use whatever methods you like to get the sound you want. All recordings are, to some extent, manufactured, even in the classical world where the actual sound in the hall/studio may not be convincing in the home. When taken to extremes just look at the horrible results when Karajan got his hands on the knobs in some of his later recordings. Pop recordings are heavily manufactured, in some cases to the point where the concept of live performance is strained to the limit.

We are straying perilously close to the world of audiophoolery which has been done to death in this forum.
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Old 8th May 2009, 10:57 am   #11
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

I agree that it would be worthwhile trying digital recording on an M-Audio or Pro Tools rig with mixdown to 1/4" and seeing how you go. You could always use tape as an 'effect' on certain tracks using a 3 head machine - you'll need to allow for tape delay but this is easy in software.

Will be a lot cheaper and easier than maintaining old pro gear!

In terms of recording sound, experiment with mic positions. A lot of the 'sound' in modern recordings is due to the density of audio and the sheer amount of 'stuff' they can in with unlimited tracks. Keep it simple, be careful with compression and enjoy
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Old 8th May 2009, 1:21 pm   #12
jamesperrett
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

I have a 16 track 2" Otari MTR90 which is a great machine but it has seen very little use over the last few years. It sounds great and is much better than a small format multitrack (I have a few of those too) but it has also required a fair bit of work to keep it going.

I'm not sure how much other research you have done but, as others have pointed out, there are other things that play a big part in the sound of a recording.

The major factor is the playing style of the people you are recording. For example - most young drummers have been brought up to play in a certain way and have difficulty playing in a style from 40 years ago. When you get a good older drummer in the studio you can hear that 60's sound almost instantly because they understand the subtleties of grip and feel that the younger drummers have missed. The young drummers may be technically better as rock music is now taught from a very early age in schools there's far more to music than technique. The same goes for other instruments.

The second major factor is the room that you are recording in which is far more important when dealing with an older recording style where the microphones are likely to be further away.

The third factor is the recording engineer - do they really know what they are doing and do they have a good ear?

Only once these three factors are sorted out should you start to worry about gear.

I would add that this sort of discussion takes place regularly in the Sound On Sound forum where, if you posted this question, you would probaby gain all kinds of opinions from people in the recording business.

Cheers

James.
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Old 8th May 2009, 2:02 pm   #13
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

Quote:
Originally Posted by jamesperrett View Post
I would add that this sort of discussion takes place regularly in the Sound On Sound forum where, if you posted this question, you would probaby gain all kinds of opinions from people in the recording business.
Indeed, this is primarily a vintage radio forum dealing with consumer technology. Members may have some experience with professional studio equipment but this is likely to be limited. My own knowledge of this area is very patchy.

Paul
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Old 10th May 2009, 10:29 pm   #14
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Default Re: 1" 8 track / 2" 16 track

I'd agree with James that the room (or rather your use of it) makes a massive contribtution if you're after an older sound, and you certainly need players that understand the older style of studio playing. Without wanting to veer too far off topic - along with his recommendation of the SoS forum, and if you haven't already, I'd suggest signing up for a (FREE!) subscription to Tape Op magazine, and checking out their messageboards too : http://www.tapeop.com/

But I think you can certainly make a record with the sound you admire without replicating the gear list of Abbey Road or Capitol circa 1969.

Good luck with the project anyhow - let us know when you get it up and running!
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