Strange backwards problem when playing 4track stereo reels

[Timvintage]

Hi everyone. I have just acquired some reel to reel tapes of various radio shows which I want to listen to and digitise. I have done this loads in the past, but have never come across this problem previously. The Tapes are definitely 4track stereo, as they have different content on each side. However, when I play the tape, the content plays backwards. Initially I thought that the previous owner had spooled the tapes on with the backing facing the heads instead of the other way round, so I manually turned the tape over in my fingers so that the other side was facing the heads. I then got the audio playing forwards, but muffled, as if it was playing from the back of the tape.
Whereas when the audio is playing backwards, it is much clearer. I hope that makes sense.
What am I doing wrong?
Thanks, Tim

[Ted Kendall]

The cause which first comes to mind is that whoever made them was using a 4/4 machine such as a TEAC 3440 and routing the stereo to the wrong two tracks. He wouldn't notice anything wrong as long as he used the same machne for playback. If your DAW software has a reverse function, you could use that as a workaround, provided that noise reduction isn't involved.

[Timvintage]

Ted I think you might have got it in one. The reason I think this, is because the seller was also selling that exact machine separately.
I have heard of these, but never used one. Weren’t they meant to be used as a 4 track for multi tracking?
So are you saying then, that for example on side one of the tape they recorded to tracks 3 and 4, and on side two, they recorded to tracks 1 and 2?
I certainly could reverse the audio in audacity once it is digitised, but I would prefer to listen to the tape while it is playing. So I guess I need to purchase one of these machines. Am I right in thinking there are different versions, so I would need to buy the correct one?

[TIMTAPE]

Yes probably. At what speed are the recordings?

[Timvintage]

Timtape they are at 7.5 ips

[BRASSBITS]

are you getting the good track through say your left channel and the backwards through your right channel?

[Timvintage]

Thanks everyone for your help. It had me confused!
Brassbits no, both channels are backwards, on side one and side two. It sounds to me that Ted was spot-on with his theory that they recorded on a Teac a3440

[TIMTAPE]

Various companies made machines capable of four track / four channel playback. Teac Tascam, Sony, Akai, Sansui from memory. Some were playback only for pre recorded quadraphonic tapes. The key part is the true four channel head. Not that easy to source these days.

[GeoffB17]

Just to note, you'd need to be sure about the tracks used.

The tape will have 4 tracks, numbered 1, 2, 3 and 4 from top to bottom. A 4 tr stereo machine will usually use tr 1 and 3 in each direction for stereo, which will translate for the TEAC as 1 & 3, and 2 and 4 the other way. It sounds like the original recordist has not followed this pattern, although I don't understand why, as it would be more trouble to record, say, on tr 1 & 2 and then 3 & 4.

Note there is a 'family' of TEAC machines that you could use. The original 2340 (smaller speed/spools) and the 3340, then the later 3440 already mentioned. All these do 7.5ips, the 2340 does 3.75ips as the second speed, the two 3 machines do 15 ips.

In case it's any help, I have a 3340 sitting here. I'm sure I could work out EXACTLY what the recorded format is.

Geoff

[Ted Kendall]

Mystery solved! Any of the four-channel TEACs or Tascams should do the job - A3340, A3440, Tascam 34, 34B. From what you describe, the tapes are recorded on tracks 2&4, which would be the right-hand pair of meters on the 3340. Quarter tracks on open reel are interleaved (1/3, 2/4), but stereo tracks on cassettes are adjacent, giving mono compatibilty by default in exchange for worse crosstalk.

The 4/4 format was originally intended for discrete quadraphony, but musicians soon cottoned on to the possibilities of an affordable four channel recorder, a market the makers were only too happy to encourage as quadrophony slowly sank into the mire.

[TIMTAPE]

They probably recorded tracks 1 and 2 as a stereo pair, and then 3 and 4. It's basically the same as the cassette format. There was some crosstalk bleed between stereo pairs on cassette but for stereo it hardly mattered. Crosstalk between unrelated tracks was annoying, especially when you could understand the speech from the interfering track. That's why with mono 1/4 track they made adjacent tracks run in opposite directions. You might hear some crosstalk but the voice was indecipherable.

[Timvintage]

Thanks everyone.
I just checked on eBay, and the seller that I bought the Tapes from, sold a teac A3340s last week, so I’m sure this would have been the machine that was used. So I will look out for one of these or a A-3440

Can't you swap the head leads over?

[TIMTAPE]

The stereo pairs have to be played in the same pass to maintain synchronization.

[TIMTAPE]

Originally Posted by Timvintage

Thanks everyone.
I just checked on eBay, and the seller that I bought the Tapes from, sold a teac A3340s last week, so I’m sure this would have been the machine that was used. So I will look out for one of these or a A-3440

Be aware these are old machines with possibly expensive repairs needed.

[Ted Kendall]

True. The Tascam 34B, if you can find one, will be a decade or so younger, but still no chicken. Provided the heads are good, most other problems are sortable.

[jamesperrett]

If you are digitising these tapes then you could just digitise them as they are on your current machine and then just reverse them in the computer. I recently had a quarter track tape to transfer which seemed perfectly normal. I then turned it over and, after a while, heard some audio that was reversed (I think someone had recorded a quarter track recording over a previous half track recording). When I reversed things in the computer it turned out to be some studio rough mixes for a well known band.

[vidjoman]

One extra thought to add. Many recording companies and serious amateurs 'store' tapes on what we would call the 'take up' reel. They are therefore backwards if you just put it on a machine to play. You should put the full reel on the right hand 'take up' side of the machine and rewind onto an empty spool placed on the left hand side. Wind the tape onto that spool and then it should play correctly. It was done to stop the tape 'sticking' as it had to be wound through the machine, and therefore was free of sticking, before play.
One further thought - it maybe that tracks 1 & 2 (instead of 1 & 3) have been used so it could be played as stereo on a 4 channel machine and is also playable on a mono machine that would play the top half of the tape. Not a recommended way to do it but I have come across it.

[Tractorfan]

Hi,
This thread reminds me of much confusion created for me by a Beocord 1500 that I was given years ago. I was pleased to have my first stereo reel to reel tape recorder that worked quite well despite me being unable to decypher the hieroglyphic symbols on the controls.
All was well until I received a second stereo Philips machine and tape recorded on the B&O made no sense on the Philips.
I eventually figured out that the B&O was a half track stereo recorder with selectable half track and quarter track playback heads. I can record mono on either track or stereo on both.
I've never seen a half track stereo deck before, so confusion reigned!
It was given to me by a head teacher, so assumed it had school use.
Cheers Pete.

[af024]

So does this mean that another 'standard' should be added to those documented here?:-
https://www.vintage-radio.net/forum/...d.php?t=159078
Goodness me, how many more ways are there?