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Vintage Tape (Audio), Cassette, Wire and Magnetic Disc Recorders and Players Open-reel tape recorders, cassette recorders, 8-track players etc.

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Old 30th Oct 2023, 12:53 pm   #1
deadwax
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Default Tape wound inside out on reel

Apologies if this post isn't the kind of thing for this forum, or this particular section but I've just received some reel to reel tapes in the post. One of them is wound on the reel inside out, as in the shiny side is innermost and the 'music' side outer most, with the track 1 leader text being seen upside down through the leader. I'm not even sure how this could occur. Is my only option to wind it onto another reel by hand the correct way. It needs to effectively travel diagonally between the reels rather in line as it would on the machine so using the machine and the angles involved isn't an option (indeed I've checked and the tape would foul on the plastic casing as it was heading towards the heads). Any suggestions appreciated.
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 1:03 pm   #2
McMurdo
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

does it have to go via the heads if you're just rewinding?
How about improvising a Beatles Revolver-style idler externally, wouldn't need much
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 1:11 pm   #3
barrymagrec
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

Some old machines were designed to run oxide out (B wind), the early German machines were all like this and even late on Telefunken offered B wind as an option. Early EMI and Ampex machines were also B wind and the EMI TR50 / 51 / 52 as well as the HMV domestic versions were oxide out on the take up reel.

Some people store tapes backwards to reduce print through since the tape needs to be rewound before playing and there is also a theory that storing oxide out is also helpful in avoiding print through.

There is normally no problem in putting a twist between the reel and first tape guide in order to play an oxide out tape but you may find it also needs rewinding.
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 1:19 pm   #4
kalee20
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

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Originally Posted by barrymagrec View Post

Some people store tapes backwards to reduce print through since the tape needs to be rewound before playing and there is also a theory that storing oxide out is also helpful in avoiding print through.
How does that work, though... either way, there's still only one thickness of base material between two layers of magnetised oxide?
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 1:59 pm   #5
deadwax
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

Thanks for the replies. I've been out walking the dog and realised during my daily 'think' that perhaps it can go direct from reel to reel rather than through the heads as suggested above. And indeed it can and I've done it. I'm new to reel to reel and this didn't occur to me at first. Still slightly confused how it came to be the wrong way on the reel. It's a standard EMI pre-recorded tape and a Grundig TK 14.
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 2:11 pm   #6
deadwax
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

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Originally Posted by kalee20 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymagrec View Post

Some people store tapes backwards to reduce print through since the tape needs to be rewound before playing and there is also a theory that storing oxide out is also helpful in avoiding print through.
How does that work, though... either way, there's still only one thickness of base material between two layers of magnetised oxide?
I've read that storing the tape backwards (rather than inside out) helps with print through because it is less audible to the ear if you hear the print-through after the note/vocal rather than before as would be the case storing ready to play on 'side 1'.
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 2:32 pm   #7
barrymagrec
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

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Originally Posted by deadwax View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by kalee20 View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by barrymagrec View Post

Some people store tapes backwards to reduce print through since the tape needs to be rewound before playing and there is also a theory that storing oxide out is also helpful in avoiding print through.
How does that work, though... either way, there's still only one thickness of base material between two layers of magnetised oxide?
I've read that storing the tape backwards (rather than inside out) helps with print through because it is less audible to the ear if you hear the print-through after the note/vocal rather than before as would be the case storing ready to play on 'side 1'.
There`s that and the fact that having to rewind the tape before use disperses the effects of print through a little.
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 9:47 pm   #8
kalee20
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

Well, either way, for any sound on an inch of tape, there's one layer beneath it and one layer over it, one will be before, and one after, when played. Which one is which will depend whether the tape is ready-to-play or needing-rewinding, but they'll both print-through to equally... surely?
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Old 30th Oct 2023, 10:36 pm   #9
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

One point to be aware of is “back coated” tape, this appears to be shiny on the head side and Matt on the outside. This is correct but is the reverse of conventional tape. If it is one of the typical 5” mono EMI tapes then it will have been recorded on conventional tape and if complete will have leader tape at each end with the name of the artist etc on it. Providing of course it hasn’t been replaced by another tape at some time. Many of my tapes, in the day, did not end up on the spool they started on…

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Old 30th Oct 2023, 11:45 pm   #10
Ted Kendall
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

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Originally Posted by kalee20 View Post
Well, either way, for any sound on an inch of tape, there's one layer beneath it and one layer over it, one will be before, and one after, when played. Which one is which will depend whether the tape is ready-to-play or needing-rewinding, but they'll both print-through to equally... surely?
Not necessarily - print resides in the top layer of the coating - indeed, one remedy used when print-through was really problematic was to run the tape through the machine with a much-reduced erase current. This, correctly adjusted, could reduce print considerably at the cost of maybe 1dB of level at 15kHz. The general idea is that the louder print happens after a transient rather than before - echo is accepted by the brain more easily than pre-echo, which does not occur in nature.

I was once expected to remaster a recording from the period when EMI used tape and wax in parallel. On the copy tape I was given, the first chord of the opening song was preceded by eight (count 'em!) pre-echoes. Not having access to the original tape, there was nothing to be done save jump up and down until a new positive was grown from the 78 metalwork, which, predictably enough, was flawless.

Granted, the tape involved was one of the earliest EMI brews, but even H50, a tape so good in other respects that Decca engineers hoarded it after it was superseded by H77 to use on the flagship Das Rheingold project, could print awkwardly at times.

On the question of oxide-out, this was standard German practice from very early on, and used on the first British and American machines - the BTR-1, RGD, Rangertone and Ampex 200 all used it. Ampex produced an updating package for the 200, comprising an oxide-in headblock and revised electronics conforming to the new NAB standards. Machines so fitted were officially 201s, but they were still generally referred to as 200s. The rest of the UK and American firms followed suit. I wonder whether Joel Tall, who invented the Editall block around this time, had some influence in the matter - oxide-in tape is much easier to mark for editing, although German Radio stayed with oxide-out until the end. The Studer A816 was specifically designed for this purpose in the 1980s. The other unusual practice of German radio was the use of flangeless hubs and winding plates instead of spools, which necessitated the use of matt-backed tapes to keep the tape pack tight and even enough to remain self-supporting.

Last edited by Ted Kendall; 31st Oct 2023 at 12:13 am.
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Old 2nd Nov 2023, 2:30 pm   #11
Alphonse01
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Default Re: Tape wound inside out on reel

Hi Guys,

which ever is the longest run from posts to reel. Put in a half twist when threading and either rewind or fast forward depending on which side the full reel is on.

I have done this unintentionally when threading my machine. (A glass of wine or two may also have been a contributor!!).

Cheers

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