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Old 13th Oct 2023, 1:05 pm   #3301
Beobloke
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Out of interest, for everyone dissecting the internal workings of Naim's PSUs - what was your view on the difference in sound quality when you auditioned one of their components with and without the optional PSU?

Genuine question - I'd be interested to know.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 1:24 pm   #3302
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

The bit that amuses me is they insist you need to buy all these megabuck PSU's with 500VA transformers... to power a pre amp... now with their superduper new DR regulators @ £4.5K, and then the first thing that happens after the power enters the pre amp is it is distributed via 27R and 47uF RC filters.... Which will completely define what each board "see's" PSU wise.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 3:47 pm   #3303
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

But the technically unsavvy woll see the big cases, the fat cables, feel the heft and feel the sting of the price and feel very pleased with themselves. The golden words in the adverts and brochures will make it all worthwhile. They will be the recipients of envious glances. These are products intended to be looked at and thought about, not listened with.

Only the technically capable will see how a single 27 Ohm resistor makes it all a joke.

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Old 13th Oct 2023, 4:15 pm   #3304
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

A pal of mine has an array of TOTL N**m gear, which must have cost about the same as a family car. When I told him recently that I'd retired a particular amp due to mechanical hum, he exclaimed that it was also a problem for his setup... As with my DIY amp that I made over 20 years ago (the TF turned noisy recently - it had ILP toroidals that were potted), the hum varied with time and temperature...

Large toroids can couple the hum into the floorboards, to the point where it's audible during quiet passages. Unless you listen at ear-damaging levels, I'd estimate that in some cases, a large toroidal can throw out its buzz at a level that's as high as -50dB SPL below the mean listening level...(or maybe higher...be easy to measure this). If this assertion is correct, it makes an utter mockery of the concept of 'high end'. You'd be better off powering the amp with a couple of SMPS out of an old computer (it might upset the dog with a bit of HF whistle, but you can't please everyone).
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 5:06 pm   #3305
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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The bit that amuses me is they insist you need to buy all these megabuck PSU's with 500VA transformers... to power a pre amp... now with their superduper new DR regulators @ £4.5K, and then the first thing that happens after the power enters the pre amp is it is distributed via 27R and 47uF RC filters.... Which will completely define what each board "see's" PSU wise.
Sorry, what's this "insisting" you mention?

I've owned a Naim Supernait amplifier for nigh on 10 years. I can't ever recall a visit from the Salisbury Mafia forcing me to buy a PSU upgrade for it, or tying me to a chair and tickling me until I bought an expensive Naim power lead to go with it, but maybe I was out that day?

For what it's worth, I tried a Hi-Cap PSU on the Supernait and didn't like the sonic changes it made. On the other hand, when I tried a Flatcap XS PSU on the CD5XS CD player I've used as a reviewing reference for years, I thought it sounded far better with it, so it stayed. There really is no obligation to add a PSU, honest - like most things in life, you can choose to; or not to.

Still waiting to hear everyone else's opinions on the change in sound quality with a PSU added....
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 5:32 pm   #3306
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

About the most hilarious paradox is that many audiophools regard engineers as the enemy and any attempt to bring technical proof into the mix as heresy and yet most of them readily admit they don't know a resistor from a radish... who do they think actually designs the equipment they listen to I wonder?

I have particularly intense vitriol though for those engineers who take the 30 pieces of silver and then join in the promotion of such things as £300 magic fuses, mystic mains cables etc. Everyone has their price they say...

Come to think of it, I struggle to think of anyone but myself, Doug Self, and no doubt one or two that escape me right now, who are currently actually involved in the industry who actively fights back and calls charlatans and snake oil merchants out for what they are. The entire rest of the industry to a man either joins in the, well lets call it what it is, joins in the lies and corruption, this accounts for maybe 80% of the industry unfortunately, or, at best, simply never comments. A disgraceful state of affairs! There will be (and has been!) those who say "more fool you then as your stance means you are losing out on a great deal of business and making enemies of prospective customers". I say so be it. There will be other potential customers who are as appalled as I am at the take-over of the industry by charlatans.

Trading standards and the advertising standards agency by and large do nothing about it as the purveyors of piffle have the "it's all subjective" get out clause...

Can you imagine what the likes of Angus McKenzie, Gordon J King, Donald Aldous et al would think of once learned journals reviewing fuses and lengths of wire Note the amount of advertising for such things carried by all the hi fi magazines
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 6:39 pm   #3307
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jez1234 View Post
The bit that amuses me is they insist you need to buy all these megabuck PSU's with 500VA transformers... to power a pre amp... now with their superduper new DR regulators @ £4.5K, and then the first thing that happens after the power enters the pre amp is it is distributed via 27R and 47uF RC filters.... Which will completely define what each board "see's" PSU wise.
Sorry, what's this "insisting" you mention?

I've owned a Naim Supernait amplifier for nigh on 10 years. I can't ever recall a visit from the Salisbury Mafia forcing me to buy a PSU upgrade for it, or tying me to a chair and tickling me until I bought an expensive Naim power lead to go with it, but maybe I was out that day?

For what it's worth, I tried a Hi-Cap PSU on the Supernait and didn't like the sonic changes it made. On the other hand, when I tried a Flatcap XS PSU on the CD5XS CD player I've used as a reviewing reference for years, I thought it sounded far better with it, so it stayed. There really is no obligation to add a PSU, honest - like most things in life, you can choose to; or not to.

Still waiting to hear everyone else's opinions on the change in sound quality with a PSU added....
More strawmen than the yellow brick road!

I avoid Naim so have never made the comparison but as an engineer yourself please explain how 2 external PSU's, one at say £1500 and the other at £4500, both claiming wonderfully low noise and fab regulation etc etc, can behave differently when they are connected internally to the pre amps circuitry by 27R resistors in conjunction with 47uF capacitors? Obviously the 27R in line makes a mockery of claims of low output impedance of the super PSU yes? And what of the low pass filter formed by the two components that by the midrange is already giving >20dB reduction in PSU noise? As these are fitted to each board they also give pretty effective isolation between channels and stages already. Hence their early PSU with just an LM317 was perfectly adequate.

If improved grounding from separating out channels and stages is the answer then they could have done this in the first place by proper layout of PCB's and appropriate wiring of PSU power leads from the "basic" old PSU. No need for different "improved" PSU's!

I'll guess that your day job requires you to review mains leads etc? I note that one manufacturer is called "Snake River".....
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 6:52 pm   #3308
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

I remember back in times~past [1980s] someone who was an audiophiliac demonstrated to me their latest bit of audiophoolery.

I had with me a 45RPM disc of the Doctor Who theme. Put it on their turntable, wound the volume and all the tone-controls on their amp up to full.

Then tripped the release on their deck.

The needle-drop and initial few seconds of the Dr.Who theme is brilliant!

And after 20 seconds I turned to the owner of said high-end audio system and shouted to him "DOESN'T IT GO ANY LOUDER"

[I had as a student designed a bunch of 120/240-Watt two-or-four 807s in zero-bias-push-pull amps for guitarists and the like to use in 'small' pub/club basements so understood what loud meant]

Yes, I listen to the decibels not the music. If it's not hurting it's not working.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 7:07 pm   #3309
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

You'll be trampled under the hooves of an equestrian statue that you didn't hear coming!
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 8:05 pm   #3310
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post

Well, the wall wart was still in the box so I tried both and the sonic differences were quite apparent - the upgrade PSU definitely made things better, especially in the bass. Now I realise that this is all subjective nonsense about which you will not care one jot, but what if I also tell you that, when it came to the measurements, the £900 PSU reduced the through-bearing rumble figure by nearly 6dB?

I wouldn’t dismiss PSU upgrades so readily, personally.
Did you ever find out why the rumble was reduced? I think that's the important part of the story.
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 8:24 pm   #3311
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

>Yes, I listen to the decibels not the music. If it's not hurting it's not working.

You'd be well suited to my friend's £xx,xxx power amps if you like it loud. You won't hear the transformer lams buzzing!
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 9:58 pm   #3312
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I'll guess that your day job requires you to review mains leads etc? I note that one manufacturer is called "Snake River".....
I have refused to review any interconnects, loudspeaker cables, mains leads, fuses etc for the last 15 years, following a cable group test that I consider to be the absolute low point of my reviewing career.

I do have some principles, you know!
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 10:01 pm   #3313
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I struggle to think of anyone but myself, Doug Self, and no doubt one or two that escape me right now, who are currently actually involved in the industry who actively fights back and calls charlatans and snake oil merchants out for what they are.
Ah, good old Doug!

I could tell you a story or two about him, but probably shouldn’t…
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 11:21 pm   #3314
Jez1234
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jez1234 View Post
I'll guess that your day job requires you to review mains leads etc? I note that one manufacturer is called "Snake River".....
I have refused to review any interconnects, loudspeaker cables, mains leads, fuses etc for the last 15 years, following a cable group test that I consider to be the absolute low point of my reviewing career.

I do have some principles, you know!
Good on ya Adam!
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Old 13th Oct 2023, 11:22 pm   #3315
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jez1234 View Post
I struggle to think of anyone but myself, Doug Self, and no doubt one or two that escape me right now, who are currently actually involved in the industry who actively fights back and calls charlatans and snake oil merchants out for what they are.
Ah, good old Doug!

I could tell you a story or two about him, but probably shouldn’t…
PM me
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Old 14th Oct 2023, 12:34 am   #3316
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Maarten View Post
Quote:
Originally Posted by Beobloke View Post

Well, the wall wart was still in the box so I tried both and the sonic differences were quite apparent - the upgrade PSU definitely made things better, especially in the bass. Now I realise that this is all subjective nonsense about which you will not care one jot, but what if I also tell you that, when it came to the measurements, the £900 PSU reduced the through-bearing rumble figure by nearly 6dB?

I wouldn’t dismiss PSU upgrades so readily, personally.
Did you ever find out why the rumble was reduced? I think that's the important part of the story.
Well that would be Polemic rumble reduction, you get better bass reproduction from using high end power supplies with this Maarten, (I'm not familiar with the one mentioned), but it also reduces the unwanted low frequency rumble: both of which would normally be exclusively separate characteristics. However by using Polemics this is now possible... but only a chosen few are able to understand the science behind the functionality, so you just have to take their word for it.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polemic
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Old 14th Oct 2023, 7:11 am   #3317
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

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Well that would be Polemic rumble reduction,
Polemic rumble I'm guessing, is the sort of rumble which if you accuse your turntable of it it (in the horrible current phrasing) 'doubles down' and does even more of it. I'm not sure once you've got it that you can ever get rid of it. Best avoided in the first place.

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Old 14th Oct 2023, 9:42 am   #3318
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Default Re: The Audiophoolery Thread.

The good old Garrard 401 was often accused of being the rumble meister. But that is down to the plinth.

In Garrard's own paper on development of the 401, they measured rumble by mounting the deck on decoupled and damped concrete slabs on a concrete floor. And then shoved it into a chipboard plinth for sale.

On a decent high mass, non-resonant plinth there is no perceived rumble at all. I know - my deck is a 401 on a Peak hifi quartz conglomerate plinth.

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Old 14th Oct 2023, 2:47 pm   #3319
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Or better still avoid idler drive!
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Old 14th Oct 2023, 4:04 pm   #3320
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Or better still avoid idler drive!
Whilst I prefer Direct Drive, there's nothing wrong with idler drive if properly engineered, like the EMT 927 and 930. They just tend to be large, heavy and expensive...what's not to like!

S.
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