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Old 31st Jan 2012, 4:24 pm   #21
terrykc
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Maurice View Post
Does anyone know what will happen to the small relay transmitters which at the moment only transmit analogue?
Assuming you're referring to Crystal Palace relays, from 4th April, BBC2 should disappear and be replaced by the PSB1 Mux at full power.

On 18th April, all analogue transmissions will cease and all three PSB muxes will be available at full power. Most relay transmitters will not transmit the COM muxes.

Full details are available from http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/ but note that it demands a full PostCode and house number.

It is important to tick the 'I am in the aerial installation trade ' box or you won't find out much!
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 4:39 pm   #22
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Finding transmitter engineering information these days doesn't appear easy!

Looking up Crystal Palace at http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/how_do_i_...ineering_works produces only the vague and unhelpful TV (analogue) Liable to interruption

https://faq.external.bbc.co.uk/templ...terferencePage wants you to jump through hoops before coming up with:

Transmitter_ Channel_ Effect___ When
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 08:00 on 27 Jan to 16:30 on 27 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 16:30 on 27 Jan to 08:00 on 28 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 16:31 on 26 Jan to 09:01 on 27 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 08:00 today
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 05:43 today to 08:00 today
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Off Air; DSO related from 00:30 today to 05:41 today
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 16:30 yesterday to 00:30 today
Crystal Palace BBC ONE Weak Signal from 08:00 yesterday to 16:30 yesterday
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 08:00 on 27 Jan to 16:30 on 27 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 16:30 on 27 Jan to 08:00 on 28 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 16:31 on 26 Jan to 09:01 on 27 Jan
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 08:00 today to 14:20 today
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 14:30 today
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 14:20 today to 14:30 today
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 16:30 yesterday to 08:00 today
Crystal Palace BBC TWO Weak Signal from 08:00 yesterday to 16:30 yesterday

(Sorry for loss of formatting) which is, at least, informative!
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 4:45 pm   #23
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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Originally Posted by pichacker View Post
Some very good techincal info on this web site. (I'm in no way connected to it)

http://www.aerialsandtv.com/
And graphs like this one really show up the fallacy of using wideband aerials in areas like Crystal Palace where all transmissions remain in Group A.

A pity they didn't include the ubiquitous (well, it is round here!) contract aerial, just to show how bad they really are.
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Old 31st Jan 2012, 8:37 pm   #24
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
but apparently I'll be putting DSO in historical context.
It's interesting to compare. I don't recall that all the UHF users had to completely retune their sets on the exact day of the 405-line service being switched off. This has to be one of the most bonkers aspect of the switchover - they get all the old folks digi-boxes all nicely set up over a period of years, and then they all stop working at the same time. Really well thought through.

I remain biting my nails to see if we will have a usable terrestrial TV service at all. I see from the maps that we are exactly on the border between Crystal Palace and Hannington and are nominally in the "strong" zone for Crystal Palace - that's strong after going through a seriously high gain amplifier that's not needed for Hannington.

Worryingly it was suggested by the man from Ofcom that as the signals seem to be rather weak here and so outside the official limits then we don't officially have a service - which means that they don't have to fix interference problems if they occur.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 1:01 pm   #25
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

I am trying to use the analogue signal from CP when possible for it's final weeks. One thing although after transmitter switch off I can still use the analogue tuner in my TV's from a Sky Box Rf output or other modulator, I will never again see the message "NICAM stereo" on the screen.
John
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 1:06 pm   #26
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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... I don't recall that all the UHF users had to completely retune their sets on the exact day of the 405-line service being switched off ...
Well, you wouldn't, would you ...?

I gave a talk on DSO recently to a group of mainly 60+ year olds and this was one of two important things I had to stress. The other is that it is not optional ...

Knowing that I would be giving this talk, I carried out a survey (of the same audience) about three months ago to assess their level of understanding. I saw one woman glance at it and say to her friend "This doesn't concern me - I'm perfectly happy with the five channels I've got" before handing the sheet to her, she, in turn, glanced at it, nodded, and passed it on to the next table.

The problem is that, when DTT was launched in 1998 (as OnDigital), it was promoted primarily as a premium subscription service rather than as a way to view more free services. Thus it missed one audience completely and lost out to the other as most people who were interested in premium subscription services already had them from Sky or cable.

Even when finally relaunched as Freeview, it was only ever promoted as an option, and that is the bit that has stuck in most people's minds.

A pamphlet - Senior London - I picked up in the library says that DSO is the biggest change since the introduction of colour - entirely wrong, as DSO is the greatest change ever.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ppppenguin View Post
but apparently I'll be putting DSO in historical context.
This is the option I adopted - after all, I could hardly stand up for the best part of an hour saying things like 'there is no such thing as digital aerial' over and over again! - so I went back exactly 100 years from Crystal Palace DSO to April 1912, when the wireless was digital ...

From the spark transmitter on the Titanic I went on a whistle stop tour - 2MT - BBC - Baird - Marconi-EMI - Arthur C Clark - VHF/FM - ITV - Telstar - BBC2 - Colour before ending up with DTT and explaining the options available.

I could then point out that, if anybody still had a working radio from the early days of the BBC, it would still receive broadcasts. A TV from 1936 could still have been receiving programmes - albeit only on one channel - for 49 years. That no-one said in 1953 that you had to buy a VHF radio or, in 1955, that you had to be able to receive ITV. Similarly, BBC2 in 1964 or, in 1967 that you had to buy a colour TV. DSO, however, cannot be ignored ...

One aspect of DSO which particularly annoys me is the use of bully boy tactics in the advertising campaign - YOU WILL LOSE YOUR TV CHANNELS IN APRIL - and suchlike, with little or no explanation, scaring some people - particularly the elderly - witless and easily ripped off by the unscrupulous.
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Old 1st Feb 2012, 3:32 pm   #27
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Don't forget ITV1 swaps with BBC2 UHF ch 33 when it closes and BBC A starts on UHF ch 23 on 04/04/12

The rest of analogue closes on the 18th.

Touching on what terrykc about the elderly we DSO'd in 2009 and 2 years on my elderly neighbours and relatives don't have a clue about digital tv.

First problem is retuning here because Winter Hill which uses group C/D. The equipment has to pass the bottom of the band so taking in Wales/Midlands/Yorkshire so doing an auto tune you end up with channels from different regions.

On neighbour tried retuning and had BBC Wales Yorkshire ITV of course Granada was in the 800's but she did not know that.

The second problem is the elderly have problems in selecting different sources on the TV and some sets the source button is next to the standby button and sometimes they catch the source button when they turn the set off. The result of that is when they put the set on there's nothing. That's when my phone rings.

My uncle has Sky + but he just can't use it as he finds it too dificult, so he has 3 VCRs with Freeview boxes on each so he can record their programs.

At one time in the past you had a basic TV, a mid range and the all bells and wistle sets. Now we just have all bells and wistles.

Then the next problem is the remote buttons are too small and there are too many buttons and the elderly just can't see them and can't remember what they are for.

So this what you who have not DSO'd yet have to look forward to, as I'm sure all of you like me have elderly relatives and neighbours that you help with their TV problems.

Andy
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Old 9th Feb 2012, 2:02 pm   #28
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

I've completed my DSO here. My main set has integrated Freesat and Freeview so no trouble there. My workshop off-air tuner was a Rediffusion box, the sort you steal the modulator can from to make a VHF modulator. That's now in the loft, replaced by a Sagem Freeview box that I used to use with my previous main TV. Just had to make up a SCART to BNC adaptor.

I've got a spare Freeview box in the loft in case I need to bring a set into use in a hurry.

I really ought to check my lab SPGs against BBC analogue colour burst while it's still there. Shame to lose my readily available rubidium quality reference. I suppose I could get a GPS based or other precision frequency reference.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 2:37 pm   #29
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

DSO has started here today, BBC2 analogue has been switched off and we will lose the rest on the 21st.

I have been out to two elderly neighbours to re-tune their freeview boxes this morning. I have also installed a second box to enable a 22 year old video to "go digital", as she was wrongly told that it could not be converted to digital!

I expect a fair few people are still using video recorders and do not realise they can carry on working after DSO.

Mark
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 2:53 pm   #30
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Isnt Crystal Palace one of the last to switch over, anyway?-most other areas in the UK have gone digital ages ago.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 3:02 pm   #31
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

I believe Dover is one of the last to change on 13 June 2012 and 27 June 2012.

Regards, Mick.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 3:02 pm   #32
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Ulster is last for DSO, later this year.

CP next, then Tyne Tees and finally Ulster. Some of the southeast, including Dover, is still to change.

http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/when_do_i_switch
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 3:07 pm   #33
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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Originally Posted by mark pirate View Post
DSO has started here today, BBC2 analogue has been switched off, we will lose the rest on the 21st.

I have been out to two elderly neighbours to re-tune their freeview boxes this morning, I have also installed a second box to enable a 22 year old video to "go digital", as she was wrongly told that it could not be converted to digital!

I expect a fair few people are still using video recorders & do not realise they can carry on working after DSO.

Mark
I assume you are referring to the 1st stage at rowridge which dtt uses vertical and horizontal pols at 200KW that should be interesting during tropo lifts.

I posted 3 videos from last month of bilsdale with teletext and a bandscan showing rowrige analogue and digital received here for the anoraks on my youtube channel.
I found out i could see BBC 1 from rowridge daily on ch 31 just in and out of the noise during flat conditions but today it's not here so i wonder if they have reduced the analogue powers until stage 2 in 2 weeks time.

I have a few neighbours and relatives still using vcr's for recording off freewview.

Andy
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 3:15 pm   #34
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

As the Southeast holds most of the population of England compared with the rest of the Country, Im curious to know why its in the last few changeovers..

Mind you, here in Cheltenham, analogue tv gave the ITV local news as WEST, which is correct and covers Cheltenham, now its digital, the ITV local news is CENTRAL--nothing to do with us, and giving news from Nottingham, over 100 miles away! Silly.....still, its all rubbish and I dont really bother with any of it -- I think the Golden days of quality in tv broadcasting has long gone...
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 3:35 pm   #35
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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As the Southeast holds most of the population of England compared with the rest of the Country, Im curious to know why its in the last few changeovers..
I think they wanted to get a couple of large regions done first before risking a big with CP.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 4:57 pm   #36
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Quote:
DSO has started here today,
Yes here too we are serviced by Rowridge.
I'm afraid I'm very cynical about the digital TV debate. As has already been stated, it doesn't help that it is non - optional.
At the risk of going OT, what doesn't help now is the inherent complexity or at least the perceived complexity. My mother who is now in her eighties is no fool, yet she is completely befuddled by it all. She wanted to keep her old CRT TV and so i added a freeview box for her, simple enough you would think. However, there are so many issues here I don't know where to start:-
1. Trying to explain how to swtch the TV source between Freeview and VCR / HDR is something I've done so many times, yet have still not succeeded in getting through.
2. My mother in common with most elderly people do not have the slightest interest in any of the technical aspects or HD capabilities. Her eyesight is not what it was and all she wants to do is switch the TV on to her favourite soap, quiz show or whatever.
3. The Freeview box confuses her, especially of late - She keeps getting onscreen messages to retune. Programme content appears to move or disappear and she doesn't understand why retuning is required. There are so many Freeview channels and she doesn't understand how you can go to 'Channel+1' to see something you may have missed earlier. Don't even mention the fact that there are lots of radio stations accessible via her Freeview box.
4. The remotes supplied with some of these Freeview boxes leave a lot to be desired. If you have poor eyesight or arthritic hands it is nigh on impossible to make a simple selection (assuming you can decode the hieroglyphics). Some of these product designers should be shot. Just because the features can be included doesn't mean the average Joe public wants or even uses them. User interfaces for many of our digital devices are extremely poor and I struggle to think of a single appliance that is simple and intuitive to use. Every blasted digital clock in our house has an entirely different way of resetting it that is rarely obvious from the front panel markings - I hate them for that!
5. My mother lives in a warden assisted flat and as such they are required to have regular PAT tests carried out on all appliances. No problem with that, but the guys who carry out the testing are paid piece rate and frankly seem to be in too much of a hurry. After the last test my mother was left without TV again, and it transpired that in order to carry out some of the tests, certain cables were disconnected 'round the back' and were not reconnected. Needless to say my phone was ringing again that night. Now this is where it gets subtle:- I was unaware that the sparky had been round and when I was told her TV programmes had 'disappeared', the first thing I did was carry out a retune on her Freeview box. Wrong! it turned out the aerial was disconnected and so the Freeview box retuned, found nothing and overwrote the stored settings so no programmes were available. Once I'd established that the aerial had been disconnected, I had to go through all the retune hassle again which is not a terribly fast process. Ok, I may have been a bit hasty with the retune, but how on earth did we get into this state of affairs?
I'm no luddite, honest, electronics is my stock in trade, but I do despair at the way the user is presented with unnecessary complexity and digital tv is certainly a major offender in that respect.

Sorry for the long rant but I 'm expecting more phone calls tonight and in the next 2 weeks or so. Digital TV - I'm not impressed!

Dylan
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 5:36 pm   #37
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

Dylan, the lady 2 doors down from me has just turned 90 and is a cracking example of someone her age, HOWEVER digital TV has her stumped too. She cannot seem to understand that the digibox is now the tuner and 'does the channels' and use AV in on her TV. What with the fact that if the digibox is on or off (not clear due to the dingy power LED) and she is missing out on her favourite shows. The fiddly remote, the unclear operation and no clear way to her favourite shows has reduced her to near tears. She was in hospital last month and after she came home she was wanting to watch a film on TV but due to the digibox being on and her selecting an analogue channel at the same time the TV displayed a load of scrolling lines only. I ended up lending her a VHS tape of the Glenn Miller Story and her relief on seeing a proper picture was palpable. To sum up, whilst I see people not happy with the system, I'm not happy either.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 5:45 pm   #38
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

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Originally Posted by ianj View Post
As the Southeast holds most of the population of England compared with the rest of the Country, Im curious to know why its in the last few changeovers ...
Apart from any other consideration, perhaps it is so that it can be coordinated with similar changeover plans on the Continent ...?

As all main transmitters go from using four* channels to six, and with many fewer channels to choose from due to the 'digital dividend', it must have been a very complex planning exercise to ensure that all relevant channels were cleared of analogue before the high power digital transmissions started in each area.

Consideration of neighbouring countries obviously had to be factored in, so the closest areas were left to last. Ulster, with a land border with Eire being the very last.

* I'm ignoring Channel 5 because, in the main, it uses channels that will be sold off after DSO so have no conflict with DTT transmissions.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 9:09 pm   #39
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

A check on the MIDHURST website stated that they were turning BBC2 analogue off at midnight on the 29th Feb. I was going to record the switch off but they turned it off on the 28th. Big changes on my signal distribution system will have to take place. The end of an era and we are going to have to live with it. RIP channel 33. I converted an old Pye Continental when I was 15 in 1964 in time for the chaotic opening. Seems like only yesterday. J.
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Old 7th Mar 2012, 9:15 pm   #40
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Default Re: Crystal Palace DSO is looming...

I very much agree with all that has been said on the confusion caused by the switchover, after having another read of the booklet that came through the door a couple of months ago, it does not cover a lot of issues with recording equipment, I had to explain to one elderly neighbour that her video recorder needed it's own freeview box to enable it to record one channel while she watches another channel via her original box.

Since posting earlier, I was called to retune another box, unfortunately the remote has been lost, it was being used via the channel up/down buttons on the front panel, I have replaced it with another box I had spare.

If anyone has a remote for a samsung SDT-7000, please PM me.

Mark
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